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-   -   value betting rivers (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=528853)

Xanta 10-28-2007 11:18 PM

Re: value betting rivers
 
Preflop is megastandard.

I like your thinking with the turn bet size but you need to think 2 streets. Basically, you bump up your bet to 115 he's still calling with more or less the same range, but the stack sizes are much more amenable to a shove on the river that he's gonna call with top pair or some crap like that. It leaves you with 115 behind and the pot is 425, meaning he's never folding anything but a busted draw.

As played, the river is a shove for sure, you're gonna get looked up by Jacks, slowplayed tens, and flushes. It's still +EV, you just don't have enough behind for him to fold too much.

Garland 10-31-2007 05:17 PM

Re: value betting rivers
 
Joker, you've only got 40 blind bets. It's not time to be worrying about your stack. I've read through the other posts, and there are some things missing here:

[ QUOTE ]

Bad EP player limps, I raise on the button with AT to 40

[/ QUOTE ]

You initially failed to mention whether AT was suited or not, which should be part of the equation. This can be a make or break deal for a limp vs. a raise, especially when 2 or more limpers come along. Suited cards often play better multi-way. But since you didn't mention it, I'm assuming it's not suited. The pre-flop raise is standard especially with only one limper, suited or not. This hand plays much better heads-up or 3-handed, and you don't mind just picking up the pot. There's also not many things more disgusting than when the flop comes something like T82 rainbow, and the big blind busts me with a hand like 82o. It only takes one time to learn that lesson [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes JT5 with 2 spades, I have the Ts. SB checks, I bet 50, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Current pot on the flop should be $100 ($10 EP limp + $40 raise + $40 SB call + $10 BB fold). Now I can absolutely infer that you don't have 2 spades. Your bet of 50 was on the weak side, and I prefer 75 to 90. If the guy has a draw, especially a combo draw, he might smell weakness and shove over you with your stack, and you'll probably be compelled to fold. (He might do so anyway; just don't make the decision easy for him).

[ QUOTE ]
Pot is 190 now.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the pot should have $200, not $190. (not counting rake at all).

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a T. He checks, I bet 90 of my 280 left,

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you essentially have the "nuts". The bet of 90 is way too small. The problem is you're not charging enough in case has a combo draw like 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Never mind he could have Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or even K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and still have easy odds to call. Shoving prices him out. I don't want to price him out. But 160 to 180 is fine, and you might even get a naked draw to call. Once you bet this, however, you're committed on the river no matter what.

[ QUOTE ]
denying him odds to call with KQ

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be thinking on this board. You don't want to do this, either. Notice you don't mind him making the broadway end! KQ only has 4 outs, and you might get a value bet out of him if he hits his K or Q.

[ QUOTE ]
River is the 7s. He checks. Assuming he has either a J or a draw, what's the value in betting here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got 190 left and the pot is 380. This isn't much of a decision. You really didn't play the hand strongly on the turn (and also the flop in fact), so opponent with a flush or straight has to be thinking, "I have to bet now, or I'll never get paid" Shove the river all day, get paid by a J (or my favorite, an overpair), and let's play some deeper stack poker, shall we?

Garland


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