Re: QTs button
 

"Depends on whether you just magically know you are ahead/behind that often or whether you know their exact cards because of the domination/T completing straight issue."

bingo

Re: QTs button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to say call and fold the turn if utg bets again but that feels so retarded that I almost want to suggest just folding the flop. However that feels even dumber still so I don't really know what to say.

I honestly have no idea because I've never just called here before the flop.

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This sounds about right to me... I like folding the flop... cause inevitably I find an excuse to call the turn... and maybe the river... then I kick myself in the balls when he turns over an obvious KJ.

One thing I'm trying to do more is play my implied odds hands in position for IMPLIED ODDS... not middle pair. (of course, that's if I find a way to limp on the button... which I don't do often).

Re: QTs button
 

Your mistake here was not raising pre-flop with a suited Q-10 on the button.

You could have gotten both players to fold post flop with a raise if neither holds a K.

Re: QTs button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your mistake here was not raising pre-flop with a suited Q-10 on the button.

You could have gotten both players to fold post flop with one SB if neither holds a K.

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Really?

Re: QTs button
 

Probably should raise the flop, see the next two cards for free.

Re: QTs button
 

You should always raise this kind of hand preflop against weak, passive players so you can take a 4 card flop if you want.

I think you can take one off on the flop, knowing that you shouldn't get into any trouble on the turn. This shouldn't be too tough against passive, weak players. If they will never 3 bet and will just call along, you should always raise and check behind on the turn.

Re: QTs button
 

If the limpers ranges are as loose as you say, I raise this preflop all day, though I don't think it's worth debating.

Having not done that, the pot is small. I fold this flop. We are getting 7:1 and have 5 outs.

This doesn't even mention the fact that we have 2 players left to act behind us and have outs that are either tainted or provide redraws for others. The bettor's range isn't what we would call tight, but he is "passive and weak" by OP's estimation. We are probably ahead of both players a small percentage of the time, but I am not afraid of folding winners against a range I am usually behind in a small pot.

Calling and folding the turn UI or raising the flop and checking the turn probably isn't a big deal, as if there was a BDFD, I would probably be doing one of those.

Re: QTs button
 

[ QUOTE ]
first off i dont think it's close, i think it's clear cut. ill say what i did and why later. one thing i want to ask:

what if i could somehow correctly know i have the best hand on the flop 10% of the time against these two? how about 20% of the time?

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This simply becomes a math equation, does it not? I feel we are closer to the former figure than the latter in this spot. The bettor's range is probably K9o+, suited Kx, Q8o+, suited Qx, AJ, JT, A5s(discounted), K5s(discounted), JJ-66(discounted). All the hands except the draws we are ahead of are in villain's range seem to be discounted by the fact that villain wouldn't bet them because he is weak and passive.

Re: QTs button
 

"outs that are either tainted or provide redraws for others."

this is pretty much it. i think even if we fold the winner every once in awhile here those times are spoiled by the RIO mess this hand is, even in position.

as for limping preflop it worked better in a way because it helped me to manage the pot size and play better against my opponents. the closer the game is to pot limit the more of an edge my hand reading is. that said, i do normally raise this, but i might start balancing my play more and limping here more.

Re: QTs button
 

seems like an easy fold vs passive players and two behind no? i think id raise if i raised pf but theres not much to fight over/with.