Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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I think it is huge mistake to just call the turn and give him free draws to his outs on a drawish board. I want to make him pay.

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If he 3-barrels his draw UI on the river then you gain nothing by raising since that will either make him fold right there or call and then c/f the river.


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If you can't raise here, he wins the % of times he gets you to fold in this situation and he with % of time he outdraws you.

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1) I will never fold.

2) When he hits his draw on the river then raising the turn will cost you 1 more bet than calling down. How is that an argument for raising?


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Also, with a raise, you can get him to possibly fold and under pair.

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This is never happening in a BvB.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Dunno if thats an argument for raising. But just wanna say that I would rather keep 96hh in the pot than fold it out.

96hh has 4 outs in a 4.5BB pot, which is worth what? 0.4BB's? He dont have to 3-barrel an awful lot on the river to offset that value. Also add in when we win 3 BB's on 6s or 9s rivers.


IMHO. Anyone who wants to raise this turn plays too aggro in small HU pots.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Considering the strength of a normal villain's hand range when they 2 barrel this board in this spot, raising the turn to get a 4 outer to fold isnt worth it.

I think there is some merit to raising the flop, but generally speaking, calling the turn here is the best play in a vacuum IMO.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Dunno if thats an argument for raising. But just wanna say that I would rather keep 96hh in the pot than fold it out.

96hh has 4 outs in a 4.5BB pot, which is worth what? 0.4BB's? He dont have to 3-barrel an awful lot on the river to offset that value. Also add in when we win 3 BB's on 6s or 9s rivers.


IMHO. Anyone who wants to raise this turn plays too aggro in small HU pots.

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Not saying its a reason to raise, just saying its a hand that b/fs the turn.It took me a few minutes to come up with a hand that had no draw and no showdown value that will b/f the turn. K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] too. Also I agree that id rather keep these hands in.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

i agree with others but just want to add that i think a big reason why we don't raise this turn is because the pot is small. if the pot was bigger i think raising the turn for a free showdown would make sense - not because we can fold some hands, but to charge his possible straight+overcard draws. getting 3-bet is not too expensive here since we have a lot of outs. this assumes he's not too aggressive so that

1. we can comfortably fold the river UI if he 3 bets.
2. he doesn't always 3-barrel UI.

if he's aggressive, just calling down, even in a bigger pot, is probably better.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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If he 3-barrels his draw UI on the river then you gain nothing by raising since that will either make him fold right there or call and then c/f the river.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course, the game is a lot easier if you know what he will do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I am not sure why we assume he would 3-barrel on the river.

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[1) I will never fold.

[/ QUOTE ]I mean the times where you have nothing. So, if he is constantly firing these situations he gets the pot the times you have nothing and fold away, he gets the pot the times he has something and you have something less, and he gets a free draw of his semi-bluffs. He also knows that you only raise when you have something good and it is much easier to play against you.

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2) When he hits his draw on the river then raising the turn will cost you 1 more bet than calling down. How is that an argument for raising?

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Because, you win one more bet the times he misses his draw and you pay one more bet the times he hits. He will miss way more than he hits. Of course, this assumes he will not 3-barrel.

I think it was in "Theory of Poker" that talks about the best response to a semi-bluff is to raise. Now, we don't know he is semi-bluffing here but with a drawish board the odds are much higher.

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This is never happening in a BvB.

[/ QUOTE ]I will absolutely fold a pair against certain players and I know that other players will fold a pair. It is not strong argument but the value is non-zero.