Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your mancrush needs to end. If a guy is great 10% of the time and a fish 90% of the time, then he is a fish.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I play a made hand in his range the same, its unbreakable, time to fold. I disagree with the button cold call, but that seems to be prevalent with other good thinkers who mostly play live for some odd reason in 2-7 and Badugi. Post draw even YOU would play it the same.

Its no secret that my old-man crush actually ends when he is in a full ring cash game. He is brilliant (when he is awake) in a low tourny, and in HU low games but thats about it from what I am aware of.

No denying his tourny credits are phenomenal for a cash game player, the list is pages long.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your mancrush needs to end. If a guy is great 10% of the time and a fish 90% of the time, then he is a fish.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

This is called the Matusow Syndrome.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wish I could say more but I'm really not familiar with how powerful your hand actually is here. It looks really good to me but I know it's a lot easier to make a good hand in A-5 than in 2-7 so perhaps your hand is much more marginal than I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well (thinking out loud), 75321 is #8. Equivalent to 86532 in 2-7. In theory, there are the same number of ways to draw any given hand in either game. You can make any hand by catching one card to one of four different four card hands, or two specific cards to one of ten different three card hands. But relative to the numerical rankings, there are more rough draws in 2-7, because of straight possibilities - no one is making 86543 by drawing to 6543. but I don't think that comes into play too much for the top ten or so hands for 1-card draws b/c every 2-7 hand up to 86543 has all clean 4 card draws. But for two card draws it matter a lot - All the hands with 6s will be drawn a little less often, since some of those 862 type hands will be pitched predraw, and three card straight draws like 345 also don't make it to made hands i.e. it seems like wheel cards are closer to equivalent in A-5 than they are in 2-7, the 2 is more important than the A, and there's no A-5 equivalent of the 7.

so maybe 75321 is the equivalent of like #10, a perfect 75 ~ a perfect 87?

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this... I gotta say that if you are going to check this spot you gotta do it with the intention of calling down without breaking. So often he will bet the turn and showdown free on river with tons of hands you beat.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]


DD seems completely right in this thread.

Hero's mistake is forgivable because villain played his hand weird/bad (imo anyway).

But I find the incidental point about O'Neal's cold-call interesting.

In my experience good online players pretty much always 3-bet or fold outside the blinds predraw, but virtually all live players cold-call more often than not with 3-card hands. (And this at high limits, fwiw.)

I don't know... does anyone take the live players' side on this question?

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

DD,

[ QUOTE ]
You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you on this 100%, I should have at least bet out on the turn and evaluate from there, but I will give you my thinking on this.

This was strictly a live read, on the second draw when I stood pat, he stood pat and then I shot him a glance like you are staying pat and he shot me back this look like, "Yeah muthaphucka I'm staying pat!"

So then I checked and he put in his chips with complete confidence. So now I am thinking, he has a monster or 7 perfect, no way he is snowing, completely out of the question. So I decide to break and the rest is history.

But you are right, I should have put the pressure on him instead of letting him take the lead on the turn, I showed weakness and he read me for weakness which I really wasn't. He probably read me for a smooth 8.

I have only played big draw games at Commerce and they play so fast and loose. So when I was playing in LV, it blew my mind the hands they were checking down and not value betting. For instance, an 86 at Commerce in deuce is check raising the river, in LV the person with a pat 86 is checking the river to the drawers.

So my read on this guy was that he was solid and not f-ing around here.

After the hand, I knew I messed up the turn, but then a player I really respect from a theoretical standpoint told me he thought I played the hand right and that the other player played the hand wrong.

His thinking was that I call a raise from the bb and then draw 2, so pretty obvious I have 3 cards 5 or below, probably pretty darn close to ABC.

So when I 3 bet out of position I am showing some serious strength, not likely I am doing this with an 8, so probably a 7 or better and he can't beat too many 7's. So his final conclusion was that the other player should have been the one to break.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

[ QUOTE ]
I showed weakness and he read me for weakness which I really wasn't. He probably read me for a smooth 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think this is really important and if you would have fully considered it at the time you would realize this is why you can't break. I guess we are just disagreeing a bit on how good a 75 is here, I'd say pretty good and you are saying its pretty weak and almost a bluff catcher.

I totally agree with you about Commerce vs Vegas draw games.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

I will say this about O'Neal(sp?), I have only played with him a handfull of times and he is truly a character.

I won't comment about the fishiness of other players, I think it is rude, if you are a true hustler you wouldn't say these things out loud, which is the one thing I don't like about these yg's today who are quick to talk shiiite. (E.G.) Crazy Mike was making a complete ass of himself at the other table playing 1/2 holdem. I had no idea who he was but he made it a point to let the entire room know who he was.

Now for TT, a funny O'Neal story:

2 years ago during the Bellagio tourney, I am playing in a 25/50 game that is half NL holdem and PLO.

We were playing NL holdem, O'Neal raises in the cutoff and Sam Grizzle reraises on the button and O'Neal quickly goes allin. Sam says, "Damn you O'Neal you really got dem aces!!!" O'Neal is as still as a statue, Sam says "If you got dem aces then you got me, I call."

The dealer deals the flop and I see the K right in the door. Turn and river are dealt out and Sam tables the wired Kings. O'Neal looks at his aces, looks at the board and then stands up disgruntled, just as he is standing up he bumps into a cocktail waitress with a tray full of drinks and he gets hot coffee spilled all over him. He made the weirdest scream that I had ever heard, I guess because he is hard of hearing.

It was quite the scene.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

Nice thread. Generally, it would be awesome if those of you who play in the big live mixed games would post more hands.