Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does my play look against an unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]2handed - Really hard to say. I tend to put unknown players in the "maybe knows what he's doing" category rather that the "thinks he's playing Texas hold 'em" category. They may not stay in that category, but they start there.

Although perhaps not as loudly, the gong would still peal "possible flopped set" (and if so, probably queens) when an unknown check-raised this flop.

(I like Cero's replies in this thread).

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

A few more questions on this hand assuming it is played against an unknown:

If I do 3bet the flop whats my plan if villain calls and the same turn card comes?
If I 3bet flop and he caps and then leads the turn are you raising a 6 7 8?
What if it is a club?
Try to forget results of actual hand if possible.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
A few more questions on this hand assuming it is played against an unknown: If I do 3bet the flop whats my plan if villain calls and the same turn card comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]Hi 2handed - Villain check raised your flop bet!

In so doing, he's signaling that he has flopped a set of queens. Does he really have the queens or not? I don't know. Maybe he just has a set of deuces or treys. Either way your pair of aces sucks for high (unless he's bluffing). You'll make the nut low 504/990 and you'll get counterfeited 210/990. (The other 276/990, nobody makes low because low will be impossible).

Why would you re-raise?

Yet if you do re-raise, you somehow will generally make play more difficult for your opponent. [ QUOTE ]
If I do 3bet the flop whats my plan if villain calls and the same turn card comes?

[/ QUOTE ]I assume that if Villain really has the set of queens, Villain will probably cap if you make it three bets on the flop and then bet the turn.

But maybe Villain will just call, greedily hoping that you bet again on the turn and he will get in an amazing second check-raise. In that case, if Villain makes the mistake of checking after the turn, it seems better to take the free card, hoping for the best on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
If I 3bet flop and he caps and then leads the turn are you raising a 6 7 8?
What if it is a club?

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting question. If it's a six or an eight, a straight is already possible. And if the turn is a club, a club flush is already possible. Can you knock Villain off a set with a raise? I don't know. With a six or eight you'll have the nut low, so that the risk seems to be to get counterfeited on the river for low (in which case you'll still have a live ace or four for low) or to get quartered for low by Villain. Against that is the chance you'll blow Villain away with the raise or catch an ace on the river for trip aces.

After the flop enables a straight or flush a raise would probably at least scare the beejeebers out of Villain and certainly would put Villain under a lot of pressure (assuming he doesn't have that covered). Interesting idea. But first you have to get a six, eight, or club on the turn (and then he has to not have that covered).

I think you can make that sort of play work better for you in a pot limit or no-limit game than in a limit game. But it's an interesting idea.

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until turn
 

This is a limit 08 hand right? The pot numbers in parenthesis make it appear that way...

Assuming it is limit, I think OP's initial analysis is correct, as is the way he played the hand. The hand ranges everyone is putting the villain on are way way too tight.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
The hand ranges everyone is putting the villain on are way way too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Joe - I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote.

I wrote:[ QUOTE ]
Villain check raised your flop bet!

In so doing, he's signaling that he has flopped a set of queens. Does he really have the queens or not? I don't know. Maybe he just has a set of deuces or treys. Either way your pair of aces sucks for high (unless he's bluffing).

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not saying Villain has flopped a set of queens. To the contrary, I'm specifically stating that I don't know if he has flopped a set of queens or not.

Let me try to correct any misunderstanding to which I might have somehow have led you. That is not putting Villain on a set of queens (which would be a too tight range of cards). However, I would be very wary of the possibility or a set or at least two pairs - both of which figure to usually beat Hero's pair of aces (plus whatever Hero is likely to pick up on the turn or river) at the showdown.

I have to admit I'm curious as to what you think Villain's range is.

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Very sound.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

I generally put villain on a4xx, a low draw (as bad as 56) plus a club draw, 456x, a set, Q3xx where xx makes a low or club draw. A lot of his calling range in the SB definitely includes junky lowcard hands like 2347 which I think he would checkraise here (and perhaps rightly, since I often am counterfeited here).

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

that range was after flop checkraise

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

If you weight his distribution highly toward A4 type hands, 3 betting the flop doesnt make a lot of sense. I would argue that by just calling the flop, you make more money against most players both when the low gets there, and also when it doesnt.

This situation comes up a lot and I think its pretty important. Getting them to bluff that last bet with 0 equity when the low doesn't get there is a lot more important than picking up 3/4 equity on a small bet but letting him fold the river.

When the low gets there, you are almost always gonna make more money by calling the flop and raising later, unless the guy is a maniac and plans on capping the flop with hands that you have crushed. IMO against sane players, if he caps the flop, your equity against his range isn't super anymore.

Edit: as played, raising a high turn is bad. Call the turn, bet if checked to and raise if you make you low otherwise call.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Hmmm I don't know, JV. You're the man at this game, but in my experience, players in this game will have A5, 56, 45, etc., and call down the whole way if they have a pair with it.

Your plan makes perfect sense to me vs. a good player in a HU match, and I think it's an excellent point you make about the value of the river bet trumping everything else by a mile. I just think that in these games, once the pot gets big, typical players will not fold ANYTHING, and our hand does well vs. that range.