Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

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if they're getting the odds to draw, you want them to fold

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Not exactly. If your opponent has a draw and you are made, you don't want them to fold, specifically. You want them to be making a mistake if they continue. The difference is a difference in thought process, and it has both subtle and gross implications on correct strategy.

For example, if your goal is to make them fold as frequently as possible, you should just overbet all-in. This is the ammount that will get the most folds. The problem is that the only hands that will call are the hands that have you crushed, so going all-in is a -EV proposition many times. On the other hand, if you just bet the most that they will call incorrectly a somewhat frequent portion of the time, then that is a very +EV play. Sure it's much higher variance. He's going to suck out far more frequently than if you just overbet push. But low variance != high winrate in no-limit. In fact in this case, they can be quite the opposite.

Note that I'm just talking in general terms, and not responding to any particular hand.

Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

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QTip, the best gauge for how big or small a pot is, is SPR. It basically tells you in one number.

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With regards to SPR, at what SPR would a pot begin to be considered "big"?

Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

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QTip, the best gauge for how big or small a pot is, is SPR. It basically tells you in one number.

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With regards to SPR, at what SPR would a pot begin to be considered "big"?

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Although you will probably get a fairly specific response, it's my opinion that thinking in even fairly rigid terms can be extremely dangerous. For example, you could have 2 hands with the exact same SPR and one hand is a big pot while the other is a small pot simply because of a difference in how the opponents play postflop.

Edit: to clarify, if you are playing a hand and it is likely that no matter what happens you or your opponent will commit, you're playing a big pot.

Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

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QTip, the best gauge for how big or small a pot is, is SPR. It basically tells you in one number.

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With regards to SPR, at what SPR would a pot begin to be considered "big"?

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Let me clarify:

Actually, The Commitment Threshold is the big tool you can use to gauge if you're getting into a big pot. (I.e. - Pot is one-fourth of the remaining money.) SPR is a great gauge at the start of the flop. (And If you have an SPR of 4 you are at the threshold.) But you'll still need to be aware of the commitment threshold (and general stack/pot considerations) on later streets.

Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

Im going to take a shot at this.

Low SPR's would mean a big pot. It goes back to their example of describing the size of the pot. A $50 pot is a big pot when you have $20 left in your stack and a $50 pot is a small pot when you have $1,000 behind.

Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

Grunch,

Yeah, I'd say in general I think of "big pot" as meaning "need to start thinking about commitment decision" or "need to start making a commitment plan".

Re: PNL Study Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

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The Q7 hand on page 52 seems to happen to me a lot. Unfortunately, the villain is not raising but merely calling the flop. For example:

I have Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], one player limps, the SB calls and I check in the BB.

The flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] giving me TPWK. I lead out a bet of 2 BB (into a 3 BB pot). The player in MP calls, and the SB folds.

While the pot now only contains 7 BB, I'm not interested in playing even a remotely large pot at this point. That usually infers a check on the turn, however, I feel at that point, most typical opponents will bet the turn after my check and I'll either a) be giving up and folding with no questsions asked, or b) calling down far too often and feeling like a donkey. On top of that, if my only goal was to fold all of the players on the flop and scoop the 3 BB pot, then I don't need any hand at all (much less a TP hand) to make that play.

Any advice on this situation? It's tough for me not to bet the flop with TP (even with a weak kicker) in a limped pot. On the other hand, I'm not interested in playing any type of medium-large pot with an extremely vulnerable hand (and one that is easily beaten by a caller).

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This is the type of situation where I think its best not to put any more money in after the flop. I know what you're thinking - you have top pair and it can be difficult to let go of a hand that has a good chance of being best in an unraised pot. However, your kicker is weak and you are out of position, with a hand that has very little chance of improving. I would advise that you let this go and wait for better spots.

Re: PNL Study Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

also, the technicalities aren't of main importance....we can discuss technical aspects of CT and SPR on those study days for sure, but wrt Pot Size, I think the real take home point is that you gauge the pot size in no-limit NOT as an exact dollar amount, but as its ratio to, or percentage of, the remaining stacks. I think that's hard to do for a lot of beginning players because they're so used to seeing a dollar as a dollar.

Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

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QTip, the best gauge for how big or small a pot is, is SPR. It basically tells you in one number.

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With regards to SPR, at what SPR would a pot begin to be considered "big"?

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Let me clarify:

Actually, The Commitment Threshold is the big tool you can use to gauge if you're getting into a big pot. (I.e. - Pot is one-fourth of the remaining money.) SPR is a great gauge at the start of the flop. (And If you have an SPR of 4 you are at the threshold.) But you'll still need to be aware of the commitment threshold (and general stack/pot considerations) on later streets.

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Alright, so a effective stack to pot ratio of 4 would indicate the threshold and be entering, generally, into big pot territory (I did not use SPR specifically because you have reserved its use at the final preflop pot only).

Re: PNL Sutdy Group Day 3: Pot Size
 

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QTip, the best gauge for how big or small a pot is, is SPR. It basically tells you in one number.

[/ QUOTE ]
With regards to SPR, at what SPR would a pot begin to be considered "big"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me clarify:

Actually, The Commitment Threshold is the big tool you can use to gauge if you're getting into a big pot. (I.e. - Pot is one-fourth of the remaining money.) SPR is a great gauge at the start of the flop. (And If you have an SPR of 4 you are at the threshold.) But you'll still need to be aware of the commitment threshold (and general stack/pot considerations) on later streets.

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Alright, so a effective stack to pot ratio of 4 would indicate the threshold and be entering, generally, into big pot territory (I did not use SPR specifically because you have reserved its use at the final preflop pot only).

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bingo. you got it.