Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

Speaking of streaks & insane stats, I went on a -35 buyin downswing in May which nearly broke me. At my lowest point my BR was $500. I took 2 months off and am just rebuilding up through NL100 now.

At some point in your career, you will run worse than you ever thought possible. (Not my phrase)

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

Wow, I had no idea they had a Limit->NL forum. I sure would've liked this about a year ago. Ok, first post here for me.

Jstill, from your OP, I get the feeling that you're way too worried about the possible flush draw. Considering that the pot is already bloated, he can't call your c-bet profitably with a flush draw. Even in the situation where the 3rd flush card hits AND he has a flush, you still have a gajillion outs. I am not folding. And don't worry about the river. After a c-bet you can just shove the turn.

My thoughts on preflop. In general, I personally don't like to 3-bet UTG raisers with AQo, especially not OOP. But it really depends on your style and your image. If you're playing 30/20 and 3-betting stuff like TT and SCs in this situation, then you can 3-bet AQo for value. But as you said, you're playing a 17/13 style, so it makes no sense to 3-bet AQo here and probably not even JJ. It basically turns those hands into bluffs.

On the c-bet size:
What's your standard c-bet? Mine is 3/4 PSB. Working of that, I'd say the two options are 3/4 PSB, or a little over 2/3 PSB. For simplicity's sake, one can just c-bet the same regardless of the situation. There are some people who prefer to bet more on drawy flops and less on dry flops. There are also people who c-bet less in 3-bet pots. I am one of these. I wrote a long blog post about this, but basically it comes down to this. In 3-bet pots, the pot is already really bloated relative to your stacksize. So it's not necessary to c-bet as much to reduce implied odds, because they are already reduced. You also benefit from the times you miss and you have to fold, so you're getting better odds on your c-bet. However, this applies more to aggressive games where light 3-betting is standard. If you only 3-bet for value, then more of your c-bets in 3-bet pots will be for value rather than as a bluff. In this case, I would argue that you should continue to make your same standard 3/4 PSB.

Another small little point I'd like to make. I saw a post above (I forgot which) referring to AF. Don't use it. Because of the structure of NL, AF is really useless except in situations where it is insanely high or insanely low. Anywhere in between doesn't tell you much at all. For example, there are aggressive players who float a lot. This will reduce their AF and make it seem like they're less aggressive. In general, I prefer to use more specific stats, like c-bet stats to make a guess on whether I'm getting valuetowned or bluffed, etc etc.

Here's a general thought I have on preflop ranges/stats/etc. I see some players whose preflop ranges are skewed (for lack of a better word). I don't really know how to articulate my thoughts correctly, so please forgive me. An example would be your 3-betting AQo. In limit, AQo is a 3-betting hand. In NL, in your particular situation (playing a rather nitty style, facing a UTG open), it really makes no sense to 3-bet AQo there. Like I also see some of my SS friends who want to open A2o on the BTN but fold 87s. In NL, you want more hands that can make decent hands, not necessarily hands with SD value. I'm not going to call down 3 streets with A2o-high against anyone. Another example would be like. AJo/KQo is a standard raise UTG to many people (6-max), as is 22. If I'm 10-tabling, I will start to cut out certain marginal hands from my range, including AJo/KQo UTG. But I will not give up raising 22 UTG. For this summer, over 130k hands at 2/4, 3/6, 55-22 is making more for me UTG (in terms of BB/hand) than AJo/KQo is. Also, 55-22 is extremely easy to play and there's almost no room for mistakes, whereas flopping TPGK OOP is much more difficult to play and that's the kind of hand you'll be making with AJo/KQo a lot of the time. I'm sure there are players who would much rather raise AJo/KQo UTG, but I personally would trash those two way before I even thought about folding 22 UTG. Even if your stats look ok (17/13 is definitely profitable at 0.50/1 if a bit tight), it's very possible that you're playing the wrong set of 17% hands.

When I use the word "you" I don't specifically mean you. I just mean players in general. Sorry if I sounded harsh at any point in my post. I was just trying to relay a point. I hope this helps.

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

very helpful, and no need for apologize I didnt take anything you said as an attack at me or get defensive about anything...

I think when I 3bet AQ (and I usually do not 3bet JJ out of the blinds) it really is more of a bluff for me, just another hand besides AK to add to my 3betting range of the blinds of QQ+ just so people cant play perfectly against me all the time and fold JJ without a thought if stack sizes arent giving them the right implied odds to call (which they often wont be).

Thats the only real reason I usually 3bet AQo in the blinds, just to have a wider range and balance my blind 3betting range a bit so its tougher to play correctly vs my range. Not sure thats good, and I was still very sketchy about doing it vs a utg raise.

I dont know why I asked so much about the flush draw possibility in my OP, like I said later there arent many hands that make flushes that I expect in his range that calls my 3bet pre. At the same time I didnt feel great postflop (and I generally c bet a bit less than pot like 4/5s or so, and even less, often in 3bet pots as you said you also do). I felt like alot of his range that stacks off is AK maybe AQ or AJ if hes loose pre or a flopped underboat with whatever the PP is..

But as 4 2 said hes seen people do stupid things on paired AAx boards esp in 3bet pots, so maybe I'm just not giving enough weight to TT JJ QQ and KK all stacking off here pretty often in a 3bet pot to a turn shove. Even still if his range is KK QQ and AK we re an 8:6 dog but with the pot and stack sizes I guess we re resigned to having to get it all in so mine as well be the one pushing to make sure we get as much in behind as ahead? Is that the way to look at this spot?

fwiw villain min raised my flop c bet of 2/3 pot, should I just have shoved there? I figured Id call and get it all in on any turn just to let him keep firing air if hes doing something stupid, not sure it was a great line though...

Re: AQ as sb 3bettor on AAx fd flop
 

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I think when I 3bet AQ (and I usually do not 3bet JJ out of the blinds) it really is more of a bluff for me, just another hand besides AK to add to my 3betting range of the blinds of QQ+ just so people cant play perfectly against me all the time and fold JJ without a thought if stack sizes arent giving them the right implied odds to call (which they often wont be).


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I've been thinking a lot about this(3 betting and responding to 3 bets has been the hardest part of moving over for limit so far for me.) Wouldn't it make sense to threebet your very best hands and hands like medium suited connectors or small pocket pairs? Because when you threebet marginal top pair hands such as AQ-j KQish against a lot of people its basically a bluff. Almost the entire range that calls/4bets you crushes marginally good top hands(assuming they fold AJ-AT most of the time). So when you are called you're looking at a really bad reverse implied odds situation. Now if you're threebetting with the very best hands such as QQ+(lower pairs depending on position and how loose of a raiser they are) and AK+ for value, and your less dominated hands as a balance so they can't fold to all of your threebets easily. I'm also pretty sure the good players are doing this to me, as when I do see showdown in threebet pots it seems like its a monster or something stupid like 67s.

Frogic