Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

But each of us decides as an individual who to vote for or whether or not to vote. If my vote is a waste of time, your decision to try to influence my vote is also a waste of time because if it doesn't make any difference how or whether I vote, an attempt to influence my decision is useless as well.

I'm using "waste of time" in the meaning that I assume you intended it to mean when you orginally mentioned it, not as a waste of the minutes we are allotted on this earth but as something that is ineffectual in achieving anything of importance.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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But each of us decides as an individual who to vote for or whether or not to vote. If my vote is a waste of time, your decision to try to influence my vote is also a waste of time because if it doesn't make any difference how or whether I vote, an attempt to influence my decision is useless as well.

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Since I cannot hope to affect the election with my single vote, it is a waste of time for me to vote. It is a waste of your time for you to vote. It is a waste of their time for any individual to vote. But if millions of people are going to erroneously waste their time voting, and I can influence those millions to vote my way, then that is not a waste of time.

Here is an example. Say there are 1000 people voting on something, including myself. It is already almost certainly a waste of my time to vote, assuming that the majority of people are foolish enough to each vote. But if I can give a speech to all 999 others that may influence them to vote my way, then that may not be a waste of my time.

Yes?

PS. In my speech I probably would not mention that it is foolish to vote. Even though it is.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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But each of us decides as an individual who to vote for or whether or not to vote. If my vote is a waste of time, your decision to try to influence my vote is also a waste of time because if it doesn't make any difference how or whether I vote, an attempt to influence my decision is useless as well.

I'm using "waste of time" in the meaning that I assume you intended it to mean when you orginally mentioned it, not as a waste of the minutes we are allotted on this earth but as something that is ineffectual in achieving anything of importance.

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Andy, most likely both voting and convincing people to vote is a waste of time. But how can you not see that, in at least some cases, convincing others might be worth it?

Voting is a waste of time unless the following inequality holds true:

(1) (benefit of your candidate winning) x (probability of your vote swaying the election) > the cost of you voting

Convincing others to vote is a waste of time unless this inequality holds true:

(2) (benefit of your candidate winning) x (probability of your persuasion swaying the election) > the cost of your persuasion


The idea is that the left hand side of inequality (1) is very close to zero because of the extremely small probability of your vote swaying the election (this is especially true in presidential elections depending on what state you live in).

On the other hand, if you are a very persuasive or powerful person and can convince thousands or millions of people to vote a how you want them to, the left hand side of inequality (2) might be a respectable number.

Now the likelihood of either of those inequalities holding true is very small, but you at least have a chance with number 2.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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But each of us decides as an individual who to vote for or whether or not to vote. If my vote is a waste of time, your decision to try to influence my vote is also a waste of time because if it doesn't make any difference how or whether I vote, an attempt to influence my decision is useless as well.

I'm using "waste of time" in the meaning that I assume you intended it to mean when you orginally mentioned it, not as a waste of the minutes we are allotted on this earth but as something that is ineffectual in achieving anything of importance.

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Andy, most likely both voting and convincing people to vote is a waste of time. But how can you not see that, in at least some cases, convincing others might be worth it?

Voting is a waste of time unless the following inequality holds true:

(1) (benefit of your candidate winning) x (probability of your vote swaying the election) > the cost of you voting

Convincing other to vote is a waste of time unless this inequality holds true:

(2) (benefit of your candidate winning) x (probability of your persuasion swaying the election) > the cost of your persuasion


The idea is that the left hand side of inequality (1) is very close to zero because of the extremely small probability of your vote swaying the election (this is especially true in presidential elections depending on what state you live in).

On the other hand, if you are a very persuasive or powerful person and can convince thousands or millions of people to vote a how you want them to, the left hand side of inequality (2) might be a respectable number.

Now the likelihood of either of those inequalities holding true is very small, but you at least have a chance with number 2.

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All true.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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But each of us decides as an individual who to vote for or whether or not to vote. If my vote is a waste of time, your decision to try to influence my vote is also a waste of time because if it doesn't make any difference how or whether I vote, an attempt to influence my decision is useless as well.

I'm using "waste of time" in the meaning that I assume you intended it to mean when you orginally mentioned it, not as a waste of the minutes we are allotted on this earth but as something that is ineffectual in achieving anything of importance.

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Your point is well taken, at least by me anyway.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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But each of us decides as an individual who to vote for or whether or not to vote. If my vote is a waste of time, your decision to try to influence my vote is also a waste of time because if it doesn't make any difference how or whether I vote, an attempt to influence my decision is useless as well.

I'm using "waste of time" in the meaning that I assume you intended it to mean when you orginally mentioned it, not as a waste of the minutes we are allotted on this earth but as something that is ineffectual in achieving anything of importance.

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for one, a culture of not wasting time can be introduced, persisted and/or strengthened by a single a vote, thereby making it justfiable.

on the other hand, Borodog telling you voting is waste time is not necessarily a waste of his time. A culture of not voting can be a strong movement towards the abolishment of government.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

I actually think that filing a ballot every year should be mandatory like filing taxes, as long as people have the option of submitting a ballot in which you don't vote for anyone.

But I'm sure that would never go over well as people would probably over react and say "ZOMG you're forcing us to vote!" even though you'd have the option of voting for no one and it would be about 100x less burdensome than filing taxes.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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I actually think that filing a ballot every year should be mandatory like filing taxes, as long as people have the option of submitting a ballot in which you don't vote for anyone.

But I'm sure that would never go over well as people would probably over react and say "ZOMG you're forcing us to vote!" even though you'd have the option of voting for no one and it would be about 100x less burdensome than filing taxes.

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What would be the penalty for not voting? Assuming it's not death or prison time, what happens if I refuse to pay the fine?

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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I actually think that filing a ballot every year should be mandatory like filing taxes, as long as people have the option of submitting a ballot in which you don't vote for anyone.

But I'm sure that would never go over well as people would probably over react and say "ZOMG you're forcing us to vote!" even though you'd have the option of voting for no one and it would be about 100x less burdensome than filing taxes.

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What would be the penalty for not voting? Assuming it's not death or prison time, what happens if I refuse to pay the fine?

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Well, if I had my way it would be a fine. Not exactly sure what I would recommend for people who refuse to pay the fine, but obviously there would have to be some consequences.

Re: Voting, Ron Paul, and self defense
 

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I actually think that filing a ballot every year should be mandatory like filing taxes, as long as people have the option of submitting a ballot in which you don't vote for anyone.

But I'm sure that would never go over well as people would probably over react and say "ZOMG you're forcing us to vote!" even though you'd have the option of voting for no one and it would be about 100x less burdensome than filing taxes.

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Gonna even attempt to show that this could be constitutionally acceptable?