Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

[ QUOTE ]
Name one country with a free market that cares about the poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not about caring its about opportunity. In your country and mine charity and opportunity abound.

When the market is in charge of giving you get this.

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/gif/pd062600a.gif


When the state is in charge of the giving you get this.


http://www1.fao.org/media_thumbs/Pho..._384/15656.jpg

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

Guys, there are already plenty of threads discussing Venezuela specifically. A lot of this discussion has been hashed through before, so you might find the content in them interesting and substantive (though I'm probably biased since I posted in them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

Anyway, here are links to my posts in those threads.

Re: Thoughts and questions concerning Venezuela

Re: chavez protests in venezuela

Re: Should the US support Venezuelan Rebels?

From this thread, just to get the ball rolling:
[ QUOTE ]
This op-ed piece by Mark Weisbrot states:

[ QUOTE ]
A few economic statistics go a long way in explaining why the Venezuelan government is doing so well...


...for the 28 years that preceded the current government (1970-1998), Venezuela suffered one of the worst economic declines in Latin America and the world: per capita income fell by 35 percent. This is a worse decline than even sub-Saharan Africa suffered during this period, and shows how completely dysfunctional the economic policies of the old system had become.
...
Although Chavez talks about building "21st century socialism," the Venezuelan government's economic policies are gradualist reform, more akin to a European-style social democracy. The private sector is actually a larger share of the Venezuelan economy today than it was before Chavez took office.
...
The official poverty rate has fallen to 38.5 percent from its most recent peak of 54 percent after the opposition oil strike. But this measures only cash income; if the food subsidies and health care were taken into account, it would be well under 30 percent.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

(As usual, I think it would probably be more constructive to discuss Venezuela specifically and not "socialism" generally.)

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

What is amazing is how many will assume that Chavez is bad for Venezuala as though it is a given without presenting any data what so ever.

Im not sure either way and think probably he will be bad in the long run , but I cant help noticing that the post about Chavez being bad are always unsubstantiated sstatements and not arguments.

People lets see the data.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

I have a graduate student friend who is from Venezuela. When he gets his Ph.D. in theoretical physics, he'll have to figure out something besides going back to Venezuela. Apparently, he and the rest of his family voted against Chavez (who keeps track of such things), and are now on his personal "no jobs for you" [censored] list.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

[ QUOTE ]
...I cant help noticing that the post about Chavez being bad are always unsubstantiated statements and not arguments.

People lets see the data.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a graduate student friend who is from Venezuela. When he gets his Ph.D. in theoretical physics, he'll have to figure out something besides going back to Venezuela. Apparently, he and the rest of his family voted against Chavez (who keeps track of such things), and are now on his personal "no jobs for you" [censored] list.

[/ QUOTE ]
Better that they provide no data than false data.

According to the European Union Election Observation Mission for Presidential Elections Venezuela 2006:

[ QUOTE ]
The high turnout, peaceful nature, and general acceptance of results of the Presidential Elections in Venezuela open the way forward to substantial improvements in the quality and public confidence in electoral processes..

...The electronic voting system established in Venezuela is efficient, secure, and auditable, and the competence of its technical experts is consistent with its advanced
technological level.

...The use of fingerprint readers (captahuellas) neither violates the secrecy of the vote, nor is a source of fraud.

On the other hand, they are not directly relevant in the exercise of the right to vote; furthermore, they are not nor trusted by a significant part of the electorate, and in certain cases, they led to unnecessary queuing during Election Day.

...EU EOM observers evaluated the quality of the electoral process positively in 85% of the polling stations visited on Election Day. Similarly, the appraisal of polling station officials, regarding their knowledge of electoral procedures, was positive in 76% of cases, which leaves a margin for improvement in the management of the electoral process. No major problems were detected regarding the audit of closing, the random selection of polling stations, and the subsequent counting of voting receipts. The correct number of ballot boxes was audited in all visited polling stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see no evidence to indicate that the Venezuelan government "keeps track of" those who voted against Chavez.

Interestingly, in the United States our own elections do not provide "efficient, secure, and auditable" electronic voting.