Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.


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I can never explain all the difficulties involved with Christianity sufficient to answer your questions to your satisfaction. I can't answer them all to my satisfaction. Not in the sense that it all complies with human reason. There are hard doctrines in the Bible, original sin, predestination, final judgment and punishment.

As for free will, some time ago I posted a long explanation of a new, speculative idea I had which was also somewhat similar to a note in theological book by an author I respect. I can look it up for you though I have to say I can't support it directly from Scripture.

Over the past year or so I've developed a new way of thinking(for me) about these unexplainable difficulties. Of course, the traditional way is to rely on God's goodness and justice. The Bible says that's what we should do and I fully accept that - it's part of faith, and includes the concept that God is absolute reason so whatever appears against reason to us is due to our sinfulness and finitude. In the end, I think that's the only real answer.

But one thing you might want to do is gather together all the logical difficulties you have with theism and then ask who has a better solution? Take free will. What other religion or world view really solves the difficulty? Many atheists just end up saying free will is an illusion and it doesn't matter anyway. Or original sin. How do others explain the utterly horrible way humans behave?

I know this doesn't satisfy. As I said, there are no final detailed answers in this life. What the Bible says about the issues, when taken on faith and trusting that God does love us and is absolute righeousness, is enough for me. And every theologian I've ever encountered who is Bible oriented agrees - I guess that's why faith is given such a large place in Scripture.

And I don't know how and can't fully explain it, but we're not robots.

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Allow me to point out that you could avoid these dillemmas and still have your God and your Jesus if you would simply allow for the possibility that one of many of your specific doctrines might be incorrect. For instance

1. God can't see the future. Perhaps he gave up this power specifically to have the relationship with people that you ascribe to him. You once pointed me to a website for Christians who have a similar belief.

2. There are at least a few exceptions to the idea that you must be sure that Jesus is divine to enter heaven. The best example would be someone who has studied the Bible, worships God, and has come to the honest conclusion, after much study, that Jesus's divinity is not true and that GOD WANTS HIM TO REALIZE THAT. So he is honestly trying to please the God of Genesis with that disbelief. This might be a Jew (but probably not a rabbi as he could have ulterior motives for his disbelief) but it dosen't have to be. Again I think even many Fundamentalists think Jews and those who think this way are in a special, savable category.

I said many times that it seems to me that if there is a god he is probably irritated at you, given your talent for arguing the meaningless of a world without him while you screw it up with an insistence on such a precise but maybe wrong description of him.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise.

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thats not entirely true

Jesus and Mary were both humans that were not sinful in nature

it just so happens most of us at heart aren't righteous enough not to sin

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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But wait a minute. Maybe humans are not robots as far as which flavor of ice cream they prefer. But if it is true that no human (aside from Jesus)ever has or ever will behaved perfectly enough to satisfy God then it is because no one has the free will to do that. You can't have it both ways. If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise. So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.

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I'm surprised you came to that conclusion.

I'm sure there have been times when you have recognized something in you spurring you on to do the right thing, even if it means discomfort or pain. It's thing that allows us to act outside of our natural robot-likeness and choose what is right.. To me at least - this is what free will is about, and I know that I can choose both right and wrong.

The only thing conclusion that you can come to from this line of thought is that every person CAN do right, but is also guaranteed to do something wrong at least once in their life.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9)

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Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

David,

Your question is more complicated than it seems, even to some believers here. The answer has to do with original sin and its effects, and the state of man before original sin (i.e. Adam and Eve before the fall). Before they had sinned, Adam & Eve were endowed by a fullness of grace that made it easy for them to obey God and his laws. For them to sin, they first had to make a conscious choice to do so (the same as with the angels, though who made their eternal choice in an instant instead of we who take an earthly life-time for same), and unlike us, did not suffer from the weaknesses of will and inordinate natural desires that are a result of original sin. For Adam & Eve as the Summa explains, their reason was subject to God, their lower passions to their reason, and their body to their soul. And as to external forces, and the possibility of their being deceived into sinning, as Eve was deceived by the serpent (Satan), she was only so deceived by same, and thus Adam by her, because they each first sinned by interior pride, which rendered them subject to such temptation. So again, for them, they could easily avoid sin.

For us however, bearing the effects of original sin, it is much easier for us to sin, and requires more willpower and more constant recourse to God for His grace in avoiding sin. We are not forced to sin, and do in fact have free will. But we cannot as easily avoid sin as our first parents. If you want to call that a condtioned or limited free will, in that our reason cannot as easily govern our choices as it could for Adam and Eve pre-fall, I guess you can do so.

(Also to clarify things from a Catholic perspective, you ommit another person who did not sin, which was Mary, the Mother of Jesus/God. She was given the grace of an immaculate conception, and so as with Adam and Eve originally, did not suffer from the effects of original sin. The difference of course with her, is that she fulfilled the will of God and lived according to same. Thus she is the new Eve, as her son Jesus is the new Adam.)

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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I'm sure there have been times when you have recognized something in you spurring you on to do the right thing, even if it means discomfort or pain. It's thing that allows us to act outside of our natural robot-likeness and choose what is right.. To me at least - this is what free will is about, and I know that I can choose both right and wrong.


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What about those who are not capable of distinguishing right from wrong? Are sociopaths denied entry to heaven due to their lack of an ability to distinguish between what is right and wrong? Sociopaths are as god made them, right? Why should they be punished with an eternity of torment due to their god not giving them a conscience?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Hopey,

You are not distinguishing between an inability to distinguish right from wrong, and a lack of caring about same and empathy for others. Sociopaths don't lack the ability to distinguish right from wrong, which can be shown from the fact that they clearly know society not only disapproves of murder for example, but will also punish them for same, regardless of whether they "agree" with those societal norms.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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Hopey,

You are not distinguishing between an inability to distinguish right from wrong, and a lack of caring about same and empathy for others. Sociopaths don't lack the ability to distinguish right from wrong, which can be shown from the fact that they clearly know society not only disapproves of murder for example, but will also punish them for same, regardless of whether they "agree" with those societal norms.

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Not by the usual meaning of sociopath. I'd happily consider murdering people if the only reason not to was society disapproves and would punish me if they catch me.

but I'm not a sociopath because I'm not indifferent to the feelings of others.

chez

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise.

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thats not entirely true

Jesus and Mary were both humans that were not sinful in nature

it just so happens most of us at heart aren't righteous enough not to sin

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Lol Mary?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

I think maybe you're misunderstanding the concept of original sin?

I don't think Christians believe that if person behaves "perfectly" he can therefore be without sin. Even if a person always made what seemed to be the selfless choice, in every single circumstance, he would still be sinful. This has nothing to do with free will and is considered an inherent part of human nature (since Adam, for those who believe the Adam & Eve story is literal).

So they would say yes, we have the free will to do the right thing every time... but we are still not holy enough for heaven because all humans are inherently defective. Only through Jesus can we overcome this defect of our species.

Maybe I'm way off but I think original sin (man's nature) and free will (man's actions) are considered 2 different things.