Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

I dont understand why this isnt clear to everyone else... please, point out what part of what I'm saying is incorrect:

1) In a live game, sweating is allowed. (watching, not saying anything during the hand/action/game)
2) In a live game, actively giving advice to another player on how to play a hand during the hand is NOT allowed.
3) Not only is [premise 2] not allowed, it is UNIVERSALLY accepted as "unethical poker."
4) I posit that this is a UNIVERSAL poker ethic, and the same rules should apply online as in live play.

Guys, I understand that online =/= live. But there are basic rules and ethics of poker that must be followed, regardless of whether or not it is possible to break them online.

Entering a MTT with multiple accounts is universally unethical, live or online. Why isnt "multiple players to a hand" treated the same way?

Because you can get away with it?

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

[ QUOTE ]
my understanding has been that 2p2 has always followed the ethics of the individual site T&Cs...looks like nation is doing the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a very low level of ambition for a poker community. I think the thread in question and others show that most 2+2'ers want the bar to be put higher. Thus they get annoyed by somebody like Nation being a mod. It is not really reason for a demodding-punishment, but it is enough that the admins should start looking for a mod that would be more accepted by the users.

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

I think the most damning thing is Nation's attitude throughout the entire thread. Any rational person would at least entertain the possibility that bots are an explanation for the situation outlined in the bot thread, so far Nation has been extremely dismissive and has repeatedly stated that his intention in that thread is to make sure people dont even consider that this group of his friends are using bots. Mods are supposed to facilitate discussion relevant to the forum it is posted and in this case I feel as if Nation has been trying to censor those of us who think that botting is a possibility and therefore should not be a mod. I think this behavior indicates other things as well but has little relevance to why he should not be a mod because its hardly concrete.

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the most damning thing is Nation's attitude throughout the entire thread. Any rational person would at least entertain the possibility that bots are an explanation for the situation outlined in the bot thread, so far Nation has been extremely dismissive and has repeatedly stated that his intention in that thread is to make sure people dont even consider that this group of his friends are using bots. Mods are supposed to facilitate discussion relevant to the forum it is posted and in this case I feel as if Nation has been trying to censor those of us who think that botting is a possibility and therefore should not be a mod. I think this behavior indicates other things as well but has little relevance to why he should not be a mod because its hardly concrete.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes absolutely no sense.

It's not like Nation looked at the information, then tried to steer the conversation away from bots.

HE KNOWS THESE PEOPLE. PERSONALLY. LIKE REAL LIFE LIKE. He knows they aren't bots. Why in the world should he not try to steer the conversation? He knows the base of the first 500 posts in that thread to be incorrect. That's..ya know..important information.

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

The case in your OP isn't very strong. You can't demod someone for stating that a commonly accepted practice is ethical.

But I think it's very likely nation is either lying or overstating his knowledge to cover for a friend in a tough spot. Especially since he was caught saying:

[ QUOTE ]
Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the guy has been discussing and fixing AHK auto click scripts on these very forums...

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

TIE,

how about you start a thread in some other forum, not called "Nation's Modship," instead called something like "The ethics of more than one player to a hand in online play"?

The only thing your complaint seems to have to do with nation is that he disagrees with you. Shucks.

Honestly I don't feel like writing up my personal feelings about any of a variety of poker rules or ethics at the moment, but without getting in to any of that, as far as I know, nation has done a good job as a mod, has done nothing wrong in this case, has a sensible ethical code of conduct, and hopefully will have a good laugh when he sees your thread when he's next around.

Also, if you really want someone to tell you what part of what you are saying is incorrect, it would be both numbers 3 and 4. Games have sets of rules. When a game explicitly doesn't have a rule saying you can't do something, that usually means that you can do it. Further, when a representative of a site takes the time to come to this forum and explain that something is totally within the bounds of "the rules" of that site, that pretty succinctly means that it is not against the rules of that site.

Multiple accounts entering the same mtt is "against the rules." Please just stop with this nonsense about ethics. It makes every argument shades of gray that need not be involved with these matters. Multiple players to a hand is not against the rules. Why? Who really cares. Amongst the many reasons, total unenforcability of the rule is good enough to pick. Whether or not you think something is "ethical" doesn't really matter when it's not against the rules.

Finally, I laugh at the idea that there's basically anyone who hasn't either watched someone else play online and made comments like "omg you have to raise" or had someone else do the same thing while watching them play. The whole thing, however, is pretty silly in general. Live players exchange/give reads to each other all the time. They might not be giving real time advice, but they sure as hell share informational advantages. Where's the line? In live casinos there are several very clearly drawn lines. In online play, in general, the lines are drawn exactly as clearly - you just don't like where. That's not a problem with nation, it's a problem with the rules.

To people claiming that nation doesn't deserve to represent 2p2 or the forum members: wow, sigh, lol. Take your pick.

citanul

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

nation implies that Chuck is too computer illiterate to program a bot by saying the above.

But he's bright enough to install, program and update hotkey scripts:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8932154

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8988150

Note that nation was involved in other hotkey programming questions ans script threads with Chuck. nation isn't directly lying to mislead people, but his truthiness is approaching zero here.

Are mods allowed to run smokescreens to cover for friends?

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

[ QUOTE ]
When a game explicitly doesn't have a rule saying you can't do something, that usually means that you can do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just such a completely [censored]-up mentality. Somebody could easily make your everyday life a living hell without breaking a single rule or law. In every aspect of life, including games, rules will never be sufficient to regulate behaviour.

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

zb,

also, to my knowledge, nation isn't a mod of the forum where this discussion is taking place. he has no "power of censorship" there. people need to be more careful with the ridiculous claims they throw around. not that this messageboard has a "freedom of speech," but still. come on down off the high horse people. if nation is found out to be lying to cover up for someone who has a bot, that's one thing. until that time though, seriously, calm down.

Re: Nation\'s Modship
 

Citanul,

First off, thank you for sharing your opinion.

Basically, you are saying that multiple players to a hand is ok online, but not ok live-- is this correct?

Also, I'd like to hear more people (specifically non-mods) chime in.

Thanks again,
TIE

Edit: added a question