Re: Freedom
 

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No. Let's say person X steals Item A from person Y, and gives/sells it to person Z. Depending on the ease and efficiecy, I can see two options (a) person X reimburses person Y or (b) person Z loses item A and it's given back to person Y.

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This is where you start having problems. Is there some time after which this is no longer the case? Or must everything be reimbursed at some point?

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Once both person Y dies (assuming person X or someone associated with him didn't off him) and a party that wasn't an insider of person X owns the property seems to be a good statute.
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Well I'd see your tree as violating my property and my freedom to grow plants on my own property. You don't have a right to trees that hinder my property.

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Your plants smell bad to me. Are you allowed to grow them?


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If you on your property (or someone else on theirs) can smell them and object to it then no. Hopefully though you don't think that in Shake's defintion of freedom land everyone is a prick that will sue if a tree is taking up to much shade or if a plant has a mild odor. General human relationships and if that doesn't work voluntary contracts work just fine.
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It's up to whoever owns the natural resource or the rights to them.


[/ QUOTE ]Nobody owns them for now.

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Who owns the land you found them on?

Re: Freedom
 

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You aquired it through voluntary transactions.

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I am born with nothing, into total poverty, and all the land around me has already been divided up and is now declared "owned" by people who -- by sheer accident of birth -- just happened to be born onto this planet before I did.

I am now forced, by this circumstance, to labor for them and for their enrichment -- because, if I refuse to do this, I am penniless and landless and will starve to death.

Please explain to me how free I am.


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Re: Freedom
 

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Please explain to me how free I am.

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By my defintion you are free. By your defintion you're probably not. Your point?

Re: Freedom
 

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

Re: Freedom
 

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Say you want to grow plants but I have a tree that blocks out the sunlight.

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Well I'd see your tree as violating my property and my freedom to grow plants on my own property. You don't have a right to trees that hinder my property.

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I don't have the right to have a tree on my property? That's really silly. What if I feel as though your owning property next to mine hinders my property. Do you not have the right to that property?

Re: Freedom
 

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Say you want to grow plants but I have a tree that blocks out the sunlight.

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Well I'd see your tree as violating my property and my freedom to grow plants on my own property. You don't have a right to trees that hinder my property.

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I don't have the right to have a tree on my property? That's really silly. What if I feel as though your owning property next to mine hinders my property. Do you not have the right to that property?

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As I said you can do whatever the hell you want with your property, but in this case if your tree is harming my property (not allowing me to grow plants in the example Xorbie gave) how it that not violatiing my property rights?

Whether in practice anyone would actually file for grievence for shade from a tree next door is another question.

As to your question, IMO no, if your property is in the same exact shape without whatever actions I"m doing.

Re: Freedom
 

Shake,

I think your definition of freedom doesn't gel very well with the conception anyone else has. Particularly problematic is that it seems that freedom is some sort of legal construct that applies only in certain types of societies and is open to some sort of argument about reasonableness of certain complaints.

Re: Freedom
 

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Freedom in it's purest form to me would mean the freedom to do whatever you want with your property as long as you don't infringe on anyone elses rights to the same.

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a) Define property (and what if you don't have it)?

b) What if you and someone else have competing desires: only one of you can do what you want?

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If a) is done well, b) gets solved for free.

Re: Freedom
 

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Please explain to me how free I am.

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By my defintion you are free. By your defintion you're probably not. Your point?

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My point is that you have no answer for this critique, except to redefine the word "freedom" in the fine print.


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Re: Freedom
 

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As I said you can do whatever the hell you want with your property, but in this case if your tree is harming my property (not allowing me to grow plants in the example Xorbie gave) how it that not violatiing my property rights?

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Shake, not playing gotcha, just curious: by harming property, do you mean just physically affecting? Would painting a giant swastika on my house next to yours (if easements and all that didn't exist) be ok, even if it offends you and cuts your property value by 75%?