post above edited -nt-
 

nt

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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As an example of why I wasn't impressed


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It looks like a fair comparison to me assuming Paine's argument is correctly represented.

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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It looks like a fair comparison to me assuming Paine's argument is correctly represented.

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Using Paine's own words, but applying them to his own book (he was actually speaking of Euclid's Elements of Geometry):

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it is a book of self-evident demonstration, entirely independent of its author, and of everything relating to time, place, and circumstance. The matters contained in that book would have the same authority they now have, had they been written by any other person, or had the work been anonymous, or had the author never been known; for the identical certainty of who was the author, makes no part of our belief of the matters contained in the book. But it is quite otherwise with respect to the books ascribed to Moses, to Joshua, to Samuel, etc.; those are books of testimony, and they testify of things naturally incredible

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In other words, who cares if "Age of Reason" were to be a "forgery"? The Bible is obviously a different matter.

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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In other words, who cares is "Age of Reason" were to be a "forgery"? The Bible is obviously a different matter.


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There are a couple of issues here. One is Bible authorship and its importance. I've never looked closely at the question but I know for certain that not all the authors of the NT are known, for instance, Hebrews. From that point you get into the question of canonicity. I'm not going to address all those issues now.

As the to specifics of the comparison: the point tek is making is that the fact that something basically irrelevant to doctrinal issues was added at the end of one book of the Bible hardly renders anything of importance a forgery. It's rather obvious that an author can't record his own death and I expect whoever added it suspected that most people would realize that and therefore thought it superflous to note the fact Moses didn't write those words. Not a very effective forgery.

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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it is a book of self-evident demonstration, entirely independent of its author, and of everything relating to time, place, and circumstance. The matters contained in that book would have the same authority they now have, had they been written by any other person, or had the work been anonymous, or had the author never been known; for the identical certainty of who was the author, makes no part of our belief of the matters contained in the book. But it is quite otherwise with respect to the books ascribed to Moses, to Joshua, to Samuel, etc.; those are books of testimony, and they testify of things naturally incredible


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As a test, I went to that second link (the extensive review) to see what the guy's comments were on the passage above - it turns out to be convenient since he stops at the same point in the text to comment. Here is what he says:

"Such it would be with any work of history; and one could call any thing they choose not to believe "incredible" and reject it based on subjective biases -- here, Paine's snotty form of deism. 2000 years from now some egghead may call the account of the WTC disaster "incredible" because they find it hard to believe for whatever reason. Or they may find Paine's account of his experience in France "incredible" based on a subjective view or a presumption. But once theism is allowed as a paradigm, all bosh about miracles being "incredible" goes out the window."

Now again, I don't know much about the bible, but it's my understanding that when Paine mentions things "naturally incredible", he's talking about miracles like parting the red sea and so forth. So this guy is comparing the believability of that to us now with people in the future looking back at 9/11. That's just silly. Why would I bother to read any more?

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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the fact that something basically irrelevant to doctrinal issues was added at the end of one book of the Bible hardly renders anything of importance a forgery. It's rather obvious that an author can't record his own death and I expect whoever added it suspected that most people would realize that and therefore thought it superflous to note the fact Moses didn't write those words. Not a very effective forgery.

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True enough - but why not just say that? If that's the point they are trying to make, they do a really good job of obscuring it.

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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Now again, I don't know much about the bible, but it's my understanding that when Paine mentions things "naturally incredible", he's talking about miracles like parting the red sea and s o forth


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I think the point he's making is that just saying something is incredible to me doesn't make it so. There's nothing incredible about miracles if God exists.

I'm not going to address a point an hour. Post as many as you like. I will take them one at a time but only one a day, starting tomorrow.

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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There's nothing incredible about miracles if God exists.


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I think you're right, this is what he's trying to say, but I don't understand where he gets to "once theism is allowed as a paradigm" (and again, I would advise him to skip the silly example, which is pointless).

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I'm not going to address a point an hour. Post as many as you like. I will take them one at a time but only one a day, starting tomorrow.

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No problem - I know how annoying it can be to feel obliged to continue a single discussion like this. I don't know when I'll next post myself.

That being said, may I ask you a question out of curiosity? I confess I haven't closely followed your past discussions on Christianity etc. in this forum, so I don't know the answer to this question - what is it that gives you faith in your religion?

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

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what is it that gives you faith in your religion?


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I don't have faith in a religion. I have faith that Christ made atonement for the sins of mankind and that believing in and following Him anyone can partake of the forgivness He provides. My trust is in a Person. That faith and trust is initiated in us by God to which we respond. As we continue in this life we more and more discover that God keeps His promises, thus faith and trust grow.

The short answer is God is ultimately responsible for the faith I have in Him. That same is faith is available to all. "Whosoever will may come".

Re: NotReady, Thomas Paine
 

Do you believe the Bible is the word of God?