Re: Razz - terrible call on 5th...or is it?
 

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given seat 1's play on 3rd and 4th sts it's more likely that he started with a pair of 4's than a 643 ...

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If seat 1 called/called on third with a pair of Fours while staring at several possible wheel draws, then he probably thinks he's playing a game other than Razz, so guessing at his hole cards is crazy.

That is a way of saying I think it is enormously unlikely he started with a pair of Fours.

Re: Razz - terrible call on 5th...or is it?
 

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given seat 1's play on 3rd and 4th sts it's more likely that he started with a pair of 4's than a 643 ...

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If seat 1 called/called on third with a pair of Fours while staring at several possible wheel draws, then he probably thinks he's playing a game other than Razz, so guessing at his hole cards is crazy.

That is a way of saying I think it is enormously unlikely he started with a pair of Fours.

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Reasonable players like yourself see the low door cards as possible wheel draws, but many razz players see them as (87)5 or (T6)3 or even (Q2)3 since that seems like a playable starting hand to them. If it's only one bet to them (or one raise back to them after they have already called) they figure they have odds to see one more card and reevaluate. You've seen the play at higher stakes, and it's worse the farther down you go. How else do you think these players can justify playing 35-40% of all hands?

Re: Razz - terrible call on 5th...or is it?
 

It's a bad call, because you are not really getting such good pot odds. There are two more rounds of betting. Plus your weaknesses are obvious and your hand is face up. You can hope that villain started with weaker hole cards or paired his ace, but then you are still not significantly ahead. So just fold.

Re: Razz - terrible call on 5th...or is it?
 

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Well, its a pure math problem, so I didnt see reason to post the whole hand -

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Part of the math, though, has to do with how many outs there are, so seeing the original board and all the play is important. Knowing how everyone bet makes it not a pure math problem unless you play a pure math game. In which case, you might have some trouble adjusting to Razz. If you read Sklansky, I think you'll find advice against that 4th street bet.

But we all have our own styles, so, whatever works for you...

Re: Razz - terrible call on 5th...or is it?
 

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If you read Sklansky, I think you'll find advice against that 4th street bet.


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You'll find advice for it too, if you know the player in question will call 5th if there's a bet on 4th (incorrectly, of course). If he'll call 5th no matter what, no reason to bet. I believe that advice was assuming a heads up hand but I think it probably translates OK to 3 way.

But yeah, in general, no one is folding when you all brick.