Re: KK
 

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I wouldn't bet the turn in hand 1.

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Really? Just based on pf/f? Lots of hands play this way that don't have us beat, and we have been checked to on the turn.

Re: KK
 

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GRUNCH
Hand 2 I'm not sure why you'd ever plan to wait until the turn with someone who was so aggressive pf; I'd just b/3b it. Hand plays differently from there.

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You mean to donk flop?

Re: KK
 

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GRUNCH
Hand 2 I'm not sure why you'd ever plan to wait until the turn with someone who was so aggressive pf; I'd just b/3b it. Hand plays differently from there.

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You mean to donk flop?

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Yup, although I don't really consider it donking when villain caps. Same idea, though.

Re: KK
 

If the guy is aggressive enough to bluff raise he's aggressive enough to bet a worse hand on the river. If he is this player then the fold is really the part I have trouble with. The problem is, once he checkraises the turn things look pretty crappy, but not crappy enough to fold.

We miss a bet on the turn against QQ, JJ, etc., when we check (assuming he would call down with those hands), but we'll almost always win a bet when he bets the river. We also avoid being bluffed, which probably isn't happening a lot but it's probably happening enough to call it down.

That's really the problem: once he checkraises the turn none of our options are that great.

Re: KK
 

Wow, I just can't envision myself checking the turn for fear of a check raise. Guess this falls into the "inducing a bluff" camp? I'll have to noodle on this for a while.

Re: KK
 

It's not all necessarily the fear of being checkraised.

Against the vast majority of players who are too loose and too passive it's a bet. You'll get called down by a lot of worse hands, and if they raise you can fold and still sleep at night.

Against an over aggressive player you can bet and hope for a bluff-raise.

Against a decent opponent, which this guy seems like he might be, neither of those options is very good. If he's doing any hand reading at all that Ace is a killer for him unless he's either got one, or he knows his opponent will occasionally fold a better hand if he bluff raises.

Yes, a lot of the time he'll still call two bets on the big streets with an underpair, but sometimes he'll fold them, other times he'll checkraise w/ AK or top set, and other times he'll checkraise with two Queens. (I'm talking about a good player here, not necessarily the villian in question, although from what we know about him he seems like a pretty tight and aggressive player.)

If I was the villian in this hand and you were the hero, and I checkraised that turn you would most likely call down, and a huge majority of the time that would be exactly what I hoped you would do. Against a person with at least a ballpark correct bluffing frequency there's no good play to make after he raises the turn. I would avoid that by checking and winning/losing one bet on the river.

Re: KK
 

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It's not all necessarily the fear of being checkraised.

Against the vast majority of players who are too loose and too passive it's a bet. You'll get called down by a lot of worse hands, and if they raise you can fold and still sleep at night.

Against an over aggressive player you can bet and hope for a bluff-raise.

Against a decent opponent, which this guy seems like he might be, neither of those options is very good. If he's doing any hand reading at all that Ace is a killer for him unless he's either got one, or he knows his opponent will occasionally fold a better hand if he bluff raises.

Yes, a lot of the time he'll still call two bets on the big streets with an underpair, but sometimes he'll fold them, other times he'll checkraise w/ AK or top set, and other times he'll checkraise with two Queens. (I'm talking about a good player here, not necessarily the villian in question, although from what we know about him he seems like a pretty tight and aggressive player.)

If I was the villian in this hand and you were the hero, and I checkraised that turn you would most likely call down, and a huge majority of the time that would be exactly what I hoped you would do. Against a person with at least a ballpark correct bluffing frequency there's no good play to make after he raises the turn. I would avoid that by checking and winning/losing one bet on the river.

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Kind of treat it as a WA/WB thought as the hands that you beat will spew into you and ur saving money against a made A.

Re: KK
 

Seems u face a lot of tough opponents.

Hand#1 If ur opp is so aggro u feel bad about folding (because he may bluff frequently) I think it's better to check behind the turn and induce a bluff. Otherwise nh.

Hand#2 I like.