Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

Putting some numbers to this: If we give the stealer an okay but not great hand and the 9 up has A3 in the hole you get these equities:

As 2c 3h 0.515
8c 5c 2h 0.247
3s 9c Ad 0.238

If you isolate against a typical stealing hand:

As 2c 3h 0.580
8c 5c 2h 0.420

He could have a better hand, he could have a worse one. If we call 3rd and the 9 comes along with 93A we will have 51% of a 3.6 SB pot with 1 SB invested, or about 1.3 SB EV of non-invested bets. If we reraise and isolate we will have 58% of a 5.1 SB pot with 2 SB invested, or about 1.8 SB in non-invested equity.

In the immediate case I think it's clear reraising is more +EV than calling, plus if you just call and the 9 drops out then you just have a premium hand and a smaller pot which is bad. Are your implied odds/idiot player factor/whatever you want to call it worth more than half an SB? I don't know. Someone figure that out for me please lol.

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

Doesn't matter what the game is, whenever I get 3 pair I move all in. If called, I yell three pair and then act bewildered for the next 10 minutes that my three pair didn't beat whather the villian had.

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

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Are your implied odds/idiot player factor/whatever you want to call it worth more than half an SB? I don't know. Someone figure that out for me please lol.

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It's almost entirely an implied odds issue. The pure math breaks right about even, but in later stages of the pot, the potential for a higher payoff exists with 2 donators rather than 1- without even considering that at some point, you will likely shed at least one of the players who will orphan his previous bets should he brick badly.

One of the most important factors is that the call instead of the raise masks your a/2/3, allowing you the potential to raise ANY lowball even if it pairs. Bet/Raise/RR pretty much tells your opponent that there is an a/2, a/3, or 2/3 in there somewhere.

The call accomplishes two goals. It serves to potentially bring in another donator while you're starting with the stone cold nuts, and it doesn't betray the fact that you're starting with said nuts. Calling 3rd with A/2/3 is deceptive and is my preferred play almost every time, barring knowledge of my opponents which might dictate a better strategy.

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

3rd Street - raise
4th Street - fold

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

with A23, I sometimes raise and somtimes just call on third. I don't think it is correct to play it the same way every time. It may not be correct, but I am not a big fan of re-raising early in razz, because I don't like committing a lot of $ to the pot early when the villian can be way ahead on fourth if I brick and he catches good.

I love this kind of bluff. Very nicely done.

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

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I think your advice shows a lesser expected value in the long run, and may also encourage a fold on 4th where as what we really want to create a situation where the hero can call 4th street regardless of the 4th street cards.

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With A/2/3, you can take 5th street regardless of the cards, and in the face of raises, seeing as a typically live draw gives you 16 (- upcards) to improve towards a 7 and 20 (- upcards) to improve towards an 8.

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Your showing weak tight thinking by not raising to get the hand heads up, it is not the long term winning play.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Actually, it is precisely a "long term winning play" even though it may not work out in the short term in certain circumstances.
In that situation, with those cards, I'd invite action rather than cull it every time.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this question, as it tends to be stylistic, but when I'm that low on 3rd, ill gladly try to keep in an extra opponent when I know it won't be any more than 3 to 4th.

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What you call stylistic I call contrary to the advise in Sklansky on Razz. To date that is the most spot on book about any poker game I have read, he nailed 3rd street so well there is no need to deviate from the recommended course.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

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with A23, I sometimes raise and somtimes just call on third. I don't think it is correct to play it the same way every time. It may not be correct, but I am not a big fan of re-raising early in razz, because I don't like committing a lot of $ to the pot early when the villian can be way ahead on fourth if I brick and he catches good.

I love this kind of bluff. Very nicely done.

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That is precisely why you raise (its not a re-raise because the first "raise" was the villain completing), you want to commit too many chips early in the pot so if the villain catches good on 4th you have the odds to call down. Remember the villain is likely on a steal, peeling 4th after you just call on 3rd even with A23 as the 3rd street starting hand is too loose. Think of this as pot size manipulation you WANT to play a big pot.

Not re-raising is like calling with AA in the small blind vs a button raiser in Hold'em - the percentage long term play is to re-raise, not call, yet the local nits always seem to call not realizing its not the best option in the long run.

Lastly consider meta game factors. What happens if the villain re-raises again? Wouldn't that be nice? multiple 3rd street raises tie the villain to the pot just like it ties the hero to the pot, we like that as well when we are such a HUGE favorite to win.What about on future hands - the villain will become hesitant to steal lightly when he feels you will defend vigorously.

Now everyone - repeat after me: "not re-raising third street is weak tight, and will make *TT* want to sit on your left forever and ever." - I like [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

TT - thanks for the great explanation. I will make this adjustment in my play. Any idea where to find a copy of Sklansky on Razz? It seems to be out of print.

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

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TT - thanks for the great explanation. I will make this adjustment in my play. Any idea where to find a copy of Sklansky on Razz? It seems to be out of print.

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Its included in Sklansky on Poker as a double book, and is available at the Gamblers Book Store in Las Vegas (mailorder). Andy might want to add this to the FAQ since its asked so often lately.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: $5/10 Razz--Three Pair
 

Thanks for the info TT. Ordering it right now.