Re: donkey players
 

I definately think the open shove with 44 with 16bb is not the best move. As mentioned you have a larger stack (bad player) ahead of you that would probably look you up with two high cards, let alone anyone else with higher PP. You are not in danger yet with 16BB I would have waited for a better opportunity.

You sound like you believe you are making the right moves. My opinion is that you should reviewing your own decisions to make sure you made the right one. If other players make bad moves and win the hand so be it but its your correct decisions that win you $ in the long run.

Also as said above you know your table image. You need to use this against the players that you know are thinking this. Im guessing the bad player you are speaking of only thinks level1 poker (his 2 cards) and not what everyone else has, therefore your image to him is irrelevant.

Re: donkey players
 

when describing a hand: it should go something like this (so that players can help you).


I am playing a $26 tournament. Blinds are 200/400, and I have 6500 chips. I am dealt 44 preflop in the (whatever position) cutoff seat, and I open shove. Is this the best play?

These types of posts give everyone a lot more information to work fof of. Postflop play-- include pot size, your positon, obviously the flop cards, and everything included before.

Re: donkey players
 

You can call him a donk, but in the end, I like his play better than yours. Pushing in early position with 4s? To me, pushing a competitive sized stack, especially in early position, screams, I have a pair of low pockets! I hate chancing the flop, so I don't like the call with AQ, but I stil think his call was less donkish than your push.

I must qualify this with I am a donk as well. You can catch me dumping chips on Poker Stars after 9:00 pacific.

Re: donkey players
 

In poker (and life) the biggest donkey is the one who blames others for his own mistakes.

Re: donkey players
 

I'm a bit puzzled here. If I had 6500 chips or 500K chips and a small pocket pair I would never, I mean never go all in pre-flop. The only time I've done this is when I had AA and a player raised PF, it was folded to me, and after thinking about it, knowing this player, pushed all in. Fortunately, my AAs held up.

But if all you have is 88s or 55s isn't it better to raise appropriately and wait to see what gets tabled before committing all your chips? Does it always have to be a coin flip?

Re: donkey players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit puzzled here. If I had 6500 chips or 500K chips and a small pocket pair I would never, I mean never go all in pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

never ?? I think the OP is assuming he is nearing short stacked. a few posters have mentioned that 16bb is not in any desperate situation to do this but lets say you were 7BB left then an allin move is appropriate as you still have small folding equity and may not get a better hand than 44 until you are blinded out.

i dont think you can say 'never'

Re: donkey players
 

not sure why to push with 44 with 6500 chips

Re: donkey players
 

With an M of 11, you shouldn't be looking to shove a small pair preflop, and this hand is a showcase of why that is. You're announcing "I have a hand", as other players have told you they now know you have either "Any PP" or a "Top 20 hand" (assuming you mean big cards like AK etc).

Open shoving here, really does scream go away, you wouldn't be doing this with a premium pocket pair generally, and I don't see someone usually playing like this with a hand like AK either.

The hands that are likely to call you either have you crushed, bigger PP's 80% favorite, or are juuuuust behind, the 45/55 coinflip scenario you ended up with.

This play leaves 2 viable outcomes:
1) Everyone folds, you take down the pot and congratulate yourself for winning with the best hand

2) Someone calls and you sweat it out praying for a 4, or praying to hold up against overcards.

Don't be afraid of postflop play. This shoving seems to occur often with players who are not comfortable with their postflop skills, and are weary of small pp's. In fact, I wouldn't criticize you for folding this 44 here. You're in early position, the whole table is left to act, and with and M of 11, do you really want to commit yourself to a pair of 4's. Generally I would not. Hope this helps.

Re: donkey players
 

Which player in this hand is supposed to be the donkey?

Re: donkey players
 

I have to think that the equity of this move is relatively light, probably even negative. Both of you lose here and the ones that probably gain the most are the players not involved in the hand. Of course the guy has some fold equity, but he has to be aware of this fact to use it, and you have made it clear he was a reasonably weak player that called loose anyhow. As a coin-flip in a relatively large-stacked situation, you got your money in bad in terms of equity me thinks.