Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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Thought exercise for Pat, Profish and others:

Why c-bet here? What do we accomplish?

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Why would you not c-bet here? Its horrible not to.. U then have no idea where your at. what would u rather do check call? we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does. If he does call we know we are beat. I don't see any reason not to c-bet and further more find it disgusting and wrong..

Happy Thanksgiving BTW [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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I never c-bet here against unknowns and bad players. Turning your hand into a bluff against calling stations when you have SD value is bad, and why do you want to make him fold those low pocket pairs? Because you're going to get stacked when they hit their two-outer?

Checking flop makes it more like for you to be called with some sort of garbage gutshot on the turn or a low pocket pair; it's nonsensical, but fish do it.

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In position i think this has merit

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

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Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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Checking flop makes it more like for you to be called with some sort of garbage gutshot on the turn or a low pocket pair; it's nonsensical, but fish do it.

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Do you mean it's more likely for you to get called on the turn if you bet with some sort of garbage? Not sure what you're saying...

Edit: I think what gestalt is trying to do on the flop with a bet is define our hand. He's saying by getting called by an A or T let's us know that we're beat, and we can then confidently and accurately fold to further betting

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

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Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

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I just dont understand why any of u have a desire to continue on with this hand... is it b/c u don't want to fold ur big pp? if we are ahead its marginal at best.. yes were playing a fish but there are better spots.. like if u had the A or T here.. i think a huge % of the time villain has Ax here. Just give up.. there is no reason to get urself into marginal spots like this

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

Can I go ahead and ask what shattered meant by "turning your hand into a bluff"? I've seen it a few times but i'm not entirely sure what it implies. Thanks

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

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Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

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Clearly this isn't an ideal situation, only getting called when we're behind, but that by itself doesn't make it wrong.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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we bet, villain folds if he doesn't have a piece and calls if he does.

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Please tell me you see the problem with that logic. If not, you might want to look up the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

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Clearly this isn't an ideal situation, only getting called when we're behind, but that by itself doesn't make it wrong.

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not sure what your saying? are you saying u think its good to c-bet here?

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

I c-bet here because I also c-bet if I had an ace. If Im in position I check behind. Yes I realize a c-bet turns our hand into a bluff, but so what? Were not trying to get value really out of anything. Were trying to take the pot down now. C/c is pretty bad here as youre going to have villain fire at you with a large part of his range but the problem is he could easily fire the turn again. I guess c/f isnt terrible either but he is probably just as scared of the ace as we are often enough.

Re: KK and terrible flop
 

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I c-bet here because I also c-bet if I had an ace. If Im in position I check behind. Yes I realize a c-bet turns our hand into a bluff, but so what? Were not trying to get value really out of anything. Were trying to take the pot down now. C/c is pretty bad here as youre going to have villain fire at you with a large part of his range but the problem is he could easily fire the turn again. I guess c/f isnt terrible either but he is probably just as scared of the ace as we are often enough.

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QFT thank you