Re: NL25 KK
 

I used to always automatically bet this; now I like a think and then check/call more.

Re: NL25 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but you're not getting any more money out of these hands anyway, he never pushes with those hands on the flop either

[/ QUOTE ]

you really dont think at NL25 JJ/QQ pushes this flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

I havent played nl25 for a while, but idk, are people regularly committing suicide there now? Why would he shove into an ace high board when he can just check behind?

Re: NL25 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shove.

He has a flush draw almost never here IMO unless it is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which already was beating you before the turn. However, he'll have a single heart more often and I don't want to give a one card flush draw a free shot at beating me.

Re: NL25 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this trying to say that a check is bad?? I dont see your point, if your line is "all ur chips are goin in no matter what" what does it matter if check/push turn with the heart as apposed to "push and pray" the flop. The heart is coming regardless. Also, I dont think he has much of a range outside AK that would be drawing to the heart, and that already has you beat..

Re: NL25 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but you're not getting any more money out of these hands anyway, he never pushes with those hands on the flop either

[/ QUOTE ]

you really dont think at NL25 JJ/QQ pushes this flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you suggest that villain takes a different approach with a middle pair then we do? if villain has JJ/QQ and is decent, he might think as well pushing here will only lead to a call from hands that beat me.

Re: NL25 KK
 

FWIW, I find that when people just call my 4bet PF they have QQ/JJ.

Re: NL25 KK
 

I dont really see any value in pushing here but it isnt in outside the range of possiblilty that a 45/28 bets/pushes something we beat if we check here IMO.
In a nutshell agiant a guy with those stats and our 4 bet pre I have a hard time not stacking off here one way or the other but id rather check the flop.

Re: NL25 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you check the flop, he checks behind. a heart comes up. what do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shove.

He has a flush draw almost never here IMO unless it is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which already was beating you before the turn. However, he'll have a single heart more often and I don't want to give a one card flush draw a free shot at beating me.

[/ QUOTE ]

and what is the difference between pushing the turn now and pushing the flop before? as i see it, with the third heart out there, he's now folding QQ/JJ whereas a flop push he might not be folding. he's still calling with AK/AQ, of coure calling with sets/flushes. i think in this scenario, both players checking the flop was bad for your hand.

when the heart doesn't come up, it changes nothing at all. and when the heart comes up, it's bad for you.

thoughts?

Re: NL25 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]

I havent played nl25 for a while, but idk, are people regularly committing suicide there now? Why would he shove into an ace high board when he can just check behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

why do you suggest that villain takes a different approach with a middle pair then we do? if villain has JJ/QQ and is decent, he might think as well pushing here will only lead to a call from hands that beat me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this was NL50/100 I would agree with you guys but I think your giving NL25 players too much credit, a lot of the time they are bad enough to do this..

Regardless, why does it matter?? If you push your not allowing him any opportunity to push a worse hand. Even if there is a only a 1% chance (much bigger than this imo) he will push worse hands if you check to him, why is this a bad move? Especially if your 'pot-committed' and push any turn card if he checks behind..

Re: NL25 KK
 

IMO his range of Ax hands is so small, and his overall range of hands is so wide, that stacking off on this flop can almost never be incorrect