Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Of course I always enjoy FMXDA coming up villager when I'm certain he's a wolf. That's always fun. Like a knife in the groin.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Zurvan,

I honestly don't understand.

Also, I thought drawing early NK's was good for the village?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you don't understand.

That's the problem. People don't get how spending all this time cultivating a certain image in 95% of your games, for the 5% of the time you're a seer, is harmful.

Just play. Find wolves. Find villagers. Try to lynch the wolves. Try not to lynch the villagers.

Let the seer and the wolves worry about the seer.

You don't draw night kills by going out of your way to act like the seer. You draw night kills by being right, being so obviously village you'll never get lynched, or because you've done something the wolves can take advantage of by eating you (ie, WRONG WOLF PEEK). That's it. Nothing else.

If you fake seer - and are wrong - you've done two things:

1) Allowed the wolves to cross you off the seer list
2) Given them an opportunity to force the village in to a mistake.

If you are a regular villager NOT posting fake peeks, and just trying to be right, you can be wrong AND STILL GET EATEN. Sure, the village could make a mistake based on what you've said, but it's less obvious why you were eaten.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think people should stop worrying about their own metagame, and doing this to help the 1 game in 9 or whatever that they're a seer. Since everything you do to help your seer meta hurts your village meta, you're f'ing up your villager games to help your seer game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good, disciplined fake peeking can help the seer, whoever it is, in every game you play as a villager.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know how you should be playing villager? As if there's no seer.

It simplifies things SO MUCH. Forget there's even a seer in the game. Find wolfy players. Try to lynch them. Find villagery players. Try to not lynch them.

Make good decisions, based on logic, make yourself clearly a villager. If everyone did that, and forced the other players to do that, it would make being a wolf much harder.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Good post, zurv. I think you're right WRT long games.

Turbos really are a different game, though. Things happen too fast.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post, zurv. I think you're right WRT long games.

Turbos really are a different game, though. Things happen too fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, turbos are faster.

Therefore, you need to REDUCE the complexity of the village's decisions, not increase it. Faking makes things harder on the village, because there's more nebulous data.

When you're so out there with anything, it makes it very easy on the wolves to project an image with a night kill. The village needs to decide if the wolves meant the obvious, or the second level with a kill. Too much thinking involved, and too much room for error.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Zurvan makes some good points

But fpsing is absolutely NOT the biggest problem that villages have.

Its knee-jerk villaging, lynching people for stupid mistakes, and using too much logic at the expense of tone, intuition extra.

If more of the latter went on instead of the former, villages wouldn't have such a hard time dealing with fpsers.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Zurvan,

In a turbo, as a villager, all I would be doing is taking my top village read and be popping it in an "If I'm the seer" form, which basically is just spotlighting it. That's it. No fancy-schmanzy stuff from me, other than that.

Is that so bad?

I really do think in a turbo this might be a good thing. (Unless my read is wrong, LDO, but again I think that happens with my top village read pretty rarely, and I'm not exactly the most egotistical player in the world to be saying that.)

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Antidan,

the only thing that worries me about your approach is that I think you could just as easily take yourself out of the seer hunt that way than by being wrong and/or not dropping any hints.

If you're always hinting at the most obvious villager, people (wolves) are going to pick up on that pretty quickly.

I've been clearing people and saying "not my peek", for this very reason.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Dustin,

Any other way and I won't feel comfortable doing it, because it increases the percentage of time I'll be wrong and thus the percentage of time the wolves can take advantage.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

And in some ways it wouldn't be terrible for the wolves to not take me seriously, which is what I want when I AM the seer.

But that's just benefitting one game out of nine.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

a good example of this is my fake peeking chuckles D1 of this game.

Chuck was as obvious a villager as Chuck could be D1 imo, so my post was "if I said I peeked you as a villager, no one would believe that, so I won't say it".

What wouldn't be believed wasn't that fact that I was the seer (although that probably wouldn't be believed either), but that my peek just so happens to be the one of the most obvious villagers in the game.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

It's funny how many times we have this conversation. I still believe that the only reason we keep having it is because 9ers as currently configured are biased strongly towards the village but w/e. The fact that faking seer day 1 is so effective in these games is because wolves can't afford to FPS kill in 9ers (not rly) unless the stars line up perfectly for them.

w/e, as I said, we've been down this road so many times before.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

faking seer with villagers is one thing
claiming seer as a villager minutes before lynch in a turbo to save yourself is bad though

but yeah, give reads and dont be so self centered about your fake seering.

like i said dustin, i think you are a good villager when you dont fps and dont know why you think its so important to do the [censored] you do all the time.

P.S. Zurvan, stop posting in this thread, if you dont have time to put up a big brother challenge then you dont have time to post in the post game commentary in a turbo you werent involved in [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Herbie,

I think I disagree about 9ers being skewed towards the village.

Village does win most games, but the village SHOULD win a lot more imo, and its certainly possible for villages to run pretty badly and lose > %50 of games for an extended period.

I would still support not giving the seer a n0 peek though, and seeing how that turned out.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Herbie,

I think I disagree about 9ers being skewed towards the village.

Village does win most games, but the village SHOULD win a lot more imo

[/ QUOTE ]
Does not compute

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
faking seer with villagers is one thing
claiming seer as a villager minutes before lynch in a turbo to save yourself is bad though


[/ QUOTE ]

I did it the other day for a couple reasons

1) my wagon was complete bs (obviously they always are, but this time was a lot worse)

2) I thought there was a decent chance that a wolf could get lynched instead

3) I choose not to vote in self-defense

4) my peek was pretty believable imo

Obviously its horrible when you don't get lynched, and another villager gets lynched, and you have to die the following day

I should also add that I was claiming seer not minutes from the end of the day, but from the very beginning, so it seems silly to then have to unclaim before getting lynched.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Herbie,

I think I disagree about 9ers being skewed towards the village.

Village does win most games, but the village SHOULD win a lot more imo

[/ QUOTE ]
Does not compute

[/ QUOTE ]

if villages were better than we could talk about 9ers being unfair

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Herbie,

I think I disagree about 9ers being skewed towards the village.

Village does win most games, but the village SHOULD win a lot more imo

[/ QUOTE ]
Does not compute

[/ QUOTE ]

if villages were better than we could talk about 9ers being unfair

[/ QUOTE ]
If I had time I'd look back at the last ~100 9ers and look at village win %. My guess is 70% off the top of my head. That's too high IMO

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

9ers are provillage -- if the seer makes it to day 3 they probably win 80%
wolves cant really fps their nightkills as much

if a wolf dies day 1 village probably wins >80% of the time too

so only time the wolves are in good shape is when they get the seer night 1 or 2

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

I think making it to D2 with 2 live peeks ought to be enough to produce a win > %75.

Making it to D3 usually means the village only has to clear 1 player ftw, which should pretty much always happen but doesn't.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think making it to D2 with 2 live peeks ought to be enough to produce a win > %75.

Making it to D3 usually means the village only has to clear 1 player ftw, which should pretty much always happen but doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the point dustin. the majority of the time, seer will make it to day 2, so all the fps bs fakeseer crap is usually more of a distraction than a help

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

it shouldn't be a distraction if im able to just do it and be left alone

and I don't want to hear the argument that it allows me to live longer as a wolf, because I am pretty much never wolfy enough to be lynched D1 or D2 anyways

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

yes you are

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

your mom maybe, but not me

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]

And in general I think too many people put too much emphasis on wolf hunting, and not enough on clearing villagers and using process of elimination to find wolves.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally true imo.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think people should stop worrying about their own metagame, and doing this to help the 1 game in 9 or whatever that they're a seer. Since everything you do to help your seer meta hurts your village meta, you're f'ing up your villager games to help your seer game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree with this too, and this is why I hate dusting's fake-seer game.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Dusting remains the best wolf in a turbo though imo

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

Fake peeks = good idea.

If you can be read as seer, you can be read as NOT seer. Being read as NOT seer is not a good thing for village, it is a BAD thing.

Faking peeks basically makes you read as NOT seer while still finding easy ways to lay peeks down.

Very simple, very effective. It's just trying to freeroll whenever you can (and yes, I try to freeroll whenever I can).

Also, the drawback is getting blinders. For one day. D1. Of a turbo. Does anyone really think this is a big drawback?

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

The drawback to FPing is that villagers cannot correctly read you. If you share the philosophy that the game is about villagers finding villagers more than villagers finding wolves, that's a bad thing.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
The drawback to FPing is that villagers cannot correctly read you. If you share the philosophy that the game is about villagers finding villagers more than villagers finding wolves, that's a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I always discount this because it's basically the goal of my wolf game (along with lynching villagers, LDO).

Either way, yes, this is a drawback. You're slightly less readable because of it, but giving off the fake peeks should disguise villager-seer more than villager-wolf.

Of course, the more subtly done it is, the better, but I mean, in turbos, you really not going to be subtle.

And in any case, I don't think fake peeks make you that much less readable (in terms of villager-power role). Just gets the peeks out there without having to pussyfoot around them.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dusting remains the best wolf in a turbo though imo

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if dustin makes final 3s at this point, he usually gets voted out because of all his meta

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dusting remains the best wolf in a turbo though imo

[/ QUOTE ]
No, Soah is the best turbo wolf and it isn't close IMO. The fact that he is also one of the better turbo villagers proves that you don't have to sacrifice good village play to be a good wolf.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dusting remains the best wolf in a turbo though imo

[/ QUOTE ]

if dustin makes final 3s at this point, he usually gets voted out because of all his meta

[/ QUOTE ]

My experience differs, but it's possible it's a product of who makes the final three with him.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dusting remains the best wolf in a turbo though imo

[/ QUOTE ]
No, Soah is the best turbo wolf and it isn't close IMO. The fact that he is also one of the better turbo villagers proves that you don't have to sacrifice good village play to be a good wolf.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen soah play well often enough to have a high opinion of him, but that's not to say he doesn't, just that I haven't been in that many games with him. I've played a lot with dusting and he seems to read others pretty well.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

I think that Soah is a better wolf than me.

Also appreciate the comments about me reading others well. I have my moments and my last few games have been ok.

I want to do a Mets style post where I go and find my favorite turbos. That would be fun.

Re: Brace on my wrist TURBO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dusting remains the best wolf in a turbo though imo

[/ QUOTE ]
No, Soah is the best turbo wolf and it isn't close IMO. The fact that he is also one of the better turbo villagers proves that you don't have to sacrifice good village play to be a good wolf.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best turbo wolves are also the best turbo villagers, discuss. I think there is causation and it is good turbo villaging -> leads to good turbo wolfing