Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Slightly OT:
I read that AP owns UB, but does this mean UB could be compromised as well? The software is different, but how safe should UB players be feeling in light of this scandal? I have some money on UB, so I'm a bit concerned.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
As long as there is a shadow of doubt about what happened

[/ QUOTE ]
There isn't.

edit: I mean, no doubt that cheating occured. There is some doubt as to exactly how, but that shouldn't matter the way you say it might.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

if absolute admits fault they think they are done

if they offer to pay back 700k everyone should be happy, and then decide on their own will if and when they play there in the future

having dan work towards getting the money is a smart idea. him abandoning the idea is likely to mean nobody gets money, nobody admits guilt, and absolute goes on without the internet smarts. and they will survive or get bought. and nobody gets their money

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Gildwulf

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Slightly OT:
I read that AP owns UB, but does this mean UB could be compromised as well? The software is different, but how safe should UB players be feeling in light of this scandal? I have some money on UB, so I'm a bit concerned.

[/ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't have anything to worry about as far as the cheating is concerned, however the owner of AP still owes the former owner of UB a large chunk of change for buying it. If it becomes impossible to pay the former owner who knows what could happen.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Both AP and UB user their own custom poker software. As long as UB hasn't switched over to AP's software, this specific vulnerability probably isn't something you need to worry about there.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, reading the comments on digg is very depressing and why I wish this never would have made the front page.

so much for any new fish anytime soon

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

First a thought. Is AP a publicly held company? Short the stock. PM me to get details of where to send the 2% great idea fee.
Second, why does everyone assume AP seized this 700K? Why do you assume they have the money? My understanding is that as soon as this whole thing was posted villains were spotted at the tables dumping. You dont think they cashed out? I was also led to believe that they have some serious notes coming due based on the buyout terms with UB-where is that money coming from?
Does this remind you of any other former poker site?
Get your money out now.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

The problem lies in the fact that AP are no longer responsible and cannot be trusted. They have denied a superuser account existing. Several points will remain unclear forever barring a thorough 3rd party investigation.

-how many other 363 type accounts are there?
-how many games/users did 363 observe? 2+2 has uncovered 4 accounts that were aided by 363, there could be many more.
-how long have these accounts been in use (presumably from the beginning)
-who had access to these accounts?
-why did it take so long for these accounts to be recognised?

The reality is that these accounts may have been used quite widely by very senior employees at AP (and who is to say they arent at other sites), and the $1k tournament was just the first flagrant and careless use of the account in all its operation.

The scope is ridiculous here, and like so many scandals it will probably never make it out into the public eye.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Druff, any solution whereby they come out and tell more lies is unacceptable. They to take tell the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth. They need to get rid of anyone and everyone involved in the debacle, refund all parties, and implement sweeping security changes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

You guys (and gals) are way off track here.

First, this scandal affects more (many more) people than just 2p2 members.

Second, The only logical course of action is to submit all the evidence that has been assembled to as many news (press) people as possible in the hopes that someone will pick it up and run with it.

So far, the story has made BIG NEWS in forums and blogs but is not yet in the main stream media. In order to force AP to come clean, there has to be intense public pressure. This will only come from CNN, 20/20, 60 minutes type of coverage.

AP has to be made accountable even if it means they go down in flames. The rest of the online poker world will then sit up and take notice and ensure this type of thing never happens again.

Duff is in way over his head, he has no authority to discuss a deal with AP except in relation to his own money. So far, he has only had one conversation with some middle management peon who was instructed by his bosses to see where things stood. When the time comes for serious deal making it won't be a customer service rep who makes the call.

For the good of the industry as a whole, this must not be allowed to die a quiet death.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Slightly OT:
I read that AP owns UB, but does this mean UB could be compromised as well? The software is different, but how safe should UB players be feeling in light of this scandal? I have some money on UB, so I'm a bit concerned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute owns UB. One thing to bear in mind here about the sale of UB to Absolute... UB was a public company on the AIM exchange under the parent company Excapsa (ticker XCP). They "sold" all of their assets to Absolute in order to be taken private so that they could continue to operate in the US. British public companies (PartyPoker) cannot operate in the US. As far as I am concerned, the purchase was nothing more than creative bookkeeping to keep them in the US and they are still functionally separate entities.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
if absolute admits fault they think they are done

if they offer to pay back 700k everyone should be happy, and then decide on their own will if and when they play there in the future

having dan work towards getting the money is a smart idea. him abandoning the idea is likely to mean nobody gets money, nobody admits guilt, and absolute goes on without the internet smarts. and they will survive or get bought. and nobody gets their money

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy is right on the money. This isn't the Movie of the Week, where idealism always triumphs.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

People are making several judgement mistakes here.

1. This is not an isolated incident. There has been cheating in the past, there will be cheating in the future. Whatever the outcome is here, this statement is true. What we can do, and need to do, is take the course of action that minimizes the longterm cost of high stakes cheating. I believe this requires some admition from Absolute of a security breach. Allowing them to deny the cheating won't discourage future cheating, and may actually encourage it.

2. Absolute can survive either way. It is not painfully obvious to everyone there was cheating based on the video, or any hand histories. It is obvious to reasonable poker players, but fyi, the world isn't filled with reasonable poker players. There are plenty of fish who play there who are convinced the site is rigged, yet they play anyways. If Absolute admits to a security breach, and claims to have taken action to fix it, they will continue to play there. If they do not admit to a breach, Absolute will not go down in flames. There will be some converage, they will lose a significant portion of their clients, but they will continue to survive.

I mkae a living from the constant flow of money entering the pokonomy, which is generated by generally stupid people. This is also where Absolute makes their money, but some people tried to make extra by cutting into our take as well. This will never stop completely, but more blame and cost for Absolute in this case will lower how much of our edge cheaters attempt to take in the future.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
if absolute admits fault they think they are done

if they offer to pay back 700k everyone should be happy, and then decide on their own will if and when they play there in the future


[/ QUOTE ]

Take out the "everyone is happy" part and I'm on board with this line of thinking.
If Absolute thinks they can buy back their high volume play by compensating those that were cheated I think 1) they are wrong and 2) it's basically none of my business

I can call them a rogue compromised unsecure site whether or not they admit to it. Yeay.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Sent a writeup to the register about it, they've posted articles on both pieces of Info I've sent them before and they are not afraid of publishing this type of thing, so we might see something there thursday/friday.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

wow, you go to bed for 6 hours and all this....

I for one did not lose a dime in this whole fiasco. So that may automatically disqualify my having an opinion in some eyes. I do however rely on online poker for 90% of my income at other sites, so I think that anyone who does has a right to comment on this situation and have some weight given to their thoughts.

I think anyone who is saying Todd is an idiot needs to be quiet or just get banned. Todd is a very smart person and was obviously just trying to accomplish something for the greater good of all the parties who lost money in this. Like he said this isn't just 10-20k this is close to a million dollars. If what he suggested was one of only a very small % of solutions that had a significant chance of working, then it was a good one.

However, there are still a gigantic number of us that rely on online poker for a living and no we will not be satisfied until something is done about this. I really hope you guys get your money back. That would piss me off if I lost 5 figures in this nonsense and I would certainly claim to have more of a voice in this than anyone else.

There is no way that the correct thing to do would be to give the money back by "chip dumping" then continuing to play on Absolute Poker. To me that would equate to a major bank staging it's own hold up w/ or w/o the top-dogs knowing about it, then giving the money back to the main group of clients and saying, there we fixed the situation, that was the best thing for everybody. Everyone else who uses that bank is still going to be dissatisfied because in all honesty, how should they know that it would never happen again? How should people at other banks know that it could never happen to them?

Without a return of funds to cheated players, a true and sophisticated audit, admission of guilt, and revamping of management and their current system, I don't see how a greater good will be served at all.

While their at it, I think it wouldn't be impractical or inappropriate for FTP, Stars, and whatever other sites to open up their doors and say "hey all, come audit us to, we'll show you that nothing like this goes on at our site!" I think it would be great press and promotion for them, as well as a good way for casual players to get some peace of mind and find a new safer place to play.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Any body plays at planet poker anymore? It did survive until the legislation you know... and they werent even dishonest, just bad. Absolute will die too. People are stupid but not in the way one might think.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[quote
Last week, AP could in fact have gotten away with Dan's idea. It's not even an inherently bad idea; we all know that none of the people playing with any of the 5 billion other legitimate accounts on that site were affected, so if they'd settled up behind the scenes and assured everyone privately, it might have been stopped there.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could you say nobody else was affected? Anybody who was eliminated by POTRIPPER in the tourney was affected as was anybody who would have won chips from him.

Patty

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

As an aside, how incredibly lucky is Poker Stars? If the whole WCOOP ME/thev0id scandal had broken any other time it would have dominated conversation for weeks. As is, it's become an afterthought. What's one cheater compared to Godmode?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

One possible solution involves tar, feathers and maybe open flame.

It's Costa Rica isn't it?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Dugg: 962

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are living in a dreamworld if you think AP will admit to a superuser.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would find it odd if their software didn't have such a "superuser" for testing purposes.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do I think lightning won't strike again? Everyone will be watching. Everyone will be suspicious. This whole thing almost brought them down once. Trust me -- if they get themselves out of this, there's no way they will ever risk this happening again. Even if security wasn't competent enough to catch this initially, you can bet they will make the necessary adjustments now.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the kind of analysis I expected from you based on your prior posts. The only reason we are aware of this is because of a combination of some very astute observation from those who got ripped off AND some very foolish use of the superuser ability. Replace foolish use with smart superuser play, and this could easily happen again and go unnoticed.

If this was a rogue programmer, I think AP could have survived by revealing all and preventing it from happening again. But come on, this is apparently the founders and leaders of the company, I don't see how AP survives.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Looks like Mark Seif is playing in the 1k tourney on ABS in 2 hours. I guess hes not trippin about any superusers.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Good point Patty. How do you "settle up" with someone who was eliminated from a tournament by 363 & friends? Or who was eliminated later after 363 took a chink of their stack?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Druff-

...

In this rare instance where the online community can make a direction changing impact on a rogue site you are satisfied with a reset to the status quo of 6 weeks ago?

Seriously?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

And if Scott Tom or whatever isn't running the company anymore; who is? What stake does Scott Tom still have in Absolute Poker (or this AJ Green dude)

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Sweet. The Levitt article and the Digg page are on the second page when you Google "Absolute Poker".

http://www.google.com/search?q=absolute+...art=10&sa=N

It would be sweet to get these on page 1.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

I'd just like to thank Dan Druff for the work he has done on this. No one should be giving him grief for trying to get his and others' money back. In the end, I don't think that will affect anything except it closes the door to the cheated players trying to litigate (which would be a challenge to say the least).

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. This is not an isolated incident. There has been cheating in the past, there will be cheating in the future. Whatever the outcome is here, this statement is true. What we can do, and need to do, is take the course of action that minimizes the longterm cost of high stakes cheating. I believe this requires some admition from Absolute of a security breach. Allowing them to deny the cheating won't discourage future cheating, and may actually encourage it.


I mkae a living from the constant flow of money entering the pokonomy, which is generated by generally stupid people. This is also where Absolute makes their money, but some people tried to make extra by cutting into our take as well. This will never stop completely, but more blame and cost for Absolute in this case will lower how much of our edge cheaters attempt to take in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

All these points are true, but I still think people like you and I would be better off if this story doesn't get any bigger than it is.

The reason is that I think the amount of cheating this is likely to stop is far less than the amount of money potential fish that are now scared would have brought in.

How much money has cheating cost per year over the last few years? A few million per? How much money do new fish bring in every year? A few hundred million?

If the affect on cheating is a 50% reduction and the affect on new players signing up is a bit under one percent, we are worse off.

I think this is a case of people over valuing a dramatic newsworthy event with quantifiable affects (cheating) and undervaluing the reduction of an underlying factor which is much hard to quantify, which of course is just human nature.

That's not to say bringing attention to this isn't the moral thing to do, that's a whole different subject though.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

Dan, I have a ton of respect for you for changing your position and for the work you're doing with AP support. It seems like you've put a ton of thought and effort into this, and I know $12k isn't *that* much to you to keep you working this hard all by itself.

Keep us posted!

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dugg: 962

[/ QUOTE ]

Did p5's do the podcast with you already?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if Scott Tom or whatever isn't running the company anymore; who is? What stake does Scott Tom still have in Absolute Poker (or this AJ Green dude)

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of you sportsbetting bigtimers PLEASE bring this to the sportsbetting forums, after all NINE.com one of the few surviving startups of the last years is involved...They can go down the same hole that absolute and ub are going to go, same bastard (s) involved.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like Mark Seif is playing in the 1k tourney on ABS in 2 hours. I guess hes not trippin about any superusers.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I can't wait to see the chat in this tourney

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sweet. The Levitt article and the Digg page are on the second page when you Google "Absolute Poker".

http://www.google.com/search?q=absolute+...art=10&sa=N

It would be sweet to get these on page 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best way to get these pages higher in Google's results is to create links to them from other sites. The links should contain the text "Absolute Poker". People may want to do this from their blogs, etc.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like Mark Seif is playing in the 1k tourney on ABS in 2 hours. I guess hes not trippin about any superusers.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I can't wait to see the chat in this tourney

[/ QUOTE ]

Do i need any certain account balance to chat?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good point Patty. How do you "settle up" with someone who was eliminated from a tournament by 363 & friends? Or who was eliminated later after 363 took a chink of their stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy. Anybody who entered any of those tournaments and failed to cash gets their money back, and everyone who cashed gets moved up a spot (assuming superuser won). It's not perfect, but the best possible solution, I think.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
if they offer to pay back 700k everyone should be happy


[/ QUOTE ]

Not in any possible way. The untolerable event that has taken place is not the security breach with the superuser stealing, but the fact that AP shattered their integrity by lying about it, and it doesn't matter in the slightest whether "they will do it again" or not.
AP's knowingly denying that the events took place, and going as far as denying even the technical possibility of them happening, is akin to a financial institution going out of their way to cover up an insider trading scheme.

Anyone who cares the tiniest bit about the credibility of internet poker must do all they can to ensure AP faces the fullest possible consequences, regardless of whatever compensation the affected players might get.

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
hire the .xls whistleblower back or give him a settlement (I personally am not doing a [censored] thing to stop leaning on them until that happens)

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're convinced this was a whistle blower and not just incompetence can we take up a collection? Adanthar - can you contact him?

Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
 

The objections I have to your reasoning is that:
1. Most of the money brought in by fish doesn't make it to my stakes. It is lost at lower stakes to rake and other players that will never move up.

2. Most of the money taken from cheaters IS done at my stakes (or higher).