Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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I like Kalmar's move there and wish more people would do it. I called you, so turn over your cards. It's simple.

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It's also a dick move

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With the plays Yang was making there was absolutely nothing wrong or dickish about that move.

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Personally, I think it's MORE of a dick move to lead the action and then try to duck out of showing your cards. I would have made him show every time.

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QFT

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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"It's your decision". He should've never started talking.

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Not including you but some here are beating up on Rahme way too much. Out of 6000+ players, a small percentage represent themselves as true professionals. Pro or amatuer, anyone who can make it ot the final table deserves some props. Maybe I missed something but he strikes me as just another amatuer thrilled with the experience of having made it to the final table and cashing for north of a million.

"It's your decision..." was the absolute worst comment he could make in that situation.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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"It's your decision". He should've never started talking.

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Not including you but some here are beating up on Rahme way too much. Out of 6000+ players, a small percentage represent themselves as true professionals. Pro or amatuer, anyone who can make it ot the final table deserves some props. Maybe I missed something but he strikes me as just another amatuer thrilled with the experience of having made it to the final table and cashing for north of a million.

"It's your decision..." was the absolute worst comment he could make in that situation.

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Nobody's beating up on him. We recognize he is what he is. That doesn't mean we can't criticize him for talking at the wrong moment - although Yang was calling anyways. If you watched it live you saw what kind of a player he really was. Tight, tight, tight, prone to tilt.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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"It's your decision". He should've never started talking.

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Not including you but some here are beating up on Rahme way too much. Out of 6000+ players, a small percentage represent themselves as true professionals. Pro or amatuer, anyone who can make it ot the final table deserves some props. Maybe I missed something but he strikes me as just another amatuer thrilled with the experience of having made it to the final table and cashing for north of a million.

"It's your decision..." was the absolute worst comment he could make in that situation.

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Nobody's beating up on him. We recognize he is what he is. That doesn't mean we can't criticize him for talking at the wrong moment - although Yang was calling anyways. If you watched it live you saw what kind of a player he really was. Tight, tight, tight, prone to tilt.

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Nobody? C'mon. I wrote some. And yes, some are.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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Jerry Yang seems really FOS to me. Between the bizzare Bill Elder thing, and other stuff, I just feel like he's just saying whatever he thinks will make people like him.

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Agreed. Seemed like his in-play talk was because he felt he had to be dramatic. If we could have a window into his head during those tanks (which were like 10x longer in reality) I doubt there would be much other than tumbleweed and some crucifixes blowing by. His postgame/interview speeches about helping people with the money seemed very trite and insincere.

Some other things:
1) The praying. Aside from being a horribly insulting and embarrassing use of faith, at least ESPN trimmed it down. On the PPV there was a lot more chanting that got dialed down for this broadcast.

SHOW ME YOUR MIRACLES FATHER!

2) wtf with "you have a friend for life" as people busted out. I can imagine that making a huge run at the WSOP for a ton of money is a very emotional thing. But LOL at trying to portray a poker tournament like some huge spiritual journey. I would hesitate from making BFF claims about people simply because you ended up playing poker with them.

3) National pride day. Did ESPN pass out flags to everyone in the stands? Drumming up the international angle was fine at first, but it was clearly contrived by the end. Made the whole thing seem like a joke with the "USA" chant to finish it off. Weak.

Could have been a decent broadcast I guess were it not for all the morons they had to show.

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1. We are talking about a TV show that was cut to provide entertainment value to about 1.8 million first-run viewers, about half of which do NOT watch any other form of poker on TV during the year.

A lot of what makes an "entertaining" TV show is contrived or pre-planned in some way.

If you paid attention to what Hevad Khan said during the "up close and personal" segment during part 1 of the 2007 WSOP ME Final table show, you would have picked up on what Khan figured out: he is part of an entertainment TV show, not an instructional video or a news documentary.

ESPN anchor Steve Levy gave the following instruction to contestants of Dream Job a few years ago: "You are on ESPN, not CNN."

2. As for the flags: they were my idea, not ESPN's.

With 3 clients at the final table (I did their single-event product endorsement deals), I decided to buy flags for two of my clients who are citizens of their particular countries: a Danish flag for Philip Hilm's friend Lars Bonding, and a Russian flag for the Russian immigrants who showed up to support Alex Kravchenko.

[I did NOT buy a flag for Jerry Yang because he is NOT an American yet. He abandoned his Laotian citizenship when he fled to Thailand as a refugee. Even though Jerry has been a US permanent resident (Green Card Holder) for many years, he did NOT apply for US Citizenship until after the main event. The backlog for citizenship applications is 18-24 months.]

I also bought a American flag for Lee Watkinson's fiancee Timmi DeRosa at her request.

I did tell the supporters of Lam (Canada), Rahme (South Africa), and Kalmar (UK) that if they wanted to have flags in the arena, they could go to a flag shop on the 2nd floor of the Strastophere Casino.

Rahme's group bought 5 South African flags, while Lam's group bought over a dozen Canadian flags.

I wanted as many flags of as many countries as possible in the arena for a specific purpose: the video, which will eventually be shopped around by ESPN International Syndication on behalf of Harrah's Entertainment at trade shows around the world (i.e. Sportel in Monaco, Shanghai, and Miami) to TV buyers and government gambling monopoly officials, has to illustrate that poker is no longer an "American-only" game and televised poker is no longer an "American-only" entertainment product.

The composition of the 2007 WSOP ME FT, with only 3 out 9 players holding U.S. citizenship (Childs, Khan, and Watkinson), represents the present and future of poker.

We are probably closer to having a WSOP ME FT with ZERO U.S. citizens than 9 U.S. citizens.

The "globalization" of Texas Hold'em, and the "localization" of marketing and video efforts, will be the driving force for growth.

441 Productions, the New York-based company that produced the 2007 WSOP Main Event TV show for ESPN, is heavily involved in the globalization/localization efforts. 441 has the contract to produce video for the PokerStars.net Asia Pacific Poker Tour (APPT), which has aspirations to penetrate the biggest gambling markets in the world.

The big push for poker, in the next 5 to 7 years, will be in gambling-obsessive cultures in Asia, where government monopolies will be in firm control of the pheonmenon. Those government officials in those territories will have be convinced that poker does NOT threaten their existing gambling monopoly revenue streams in order to allow poker to be shown on TV.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

I'm suspecting this year's main event winner will have a similar effect on poker as moneymaker had, just the other way around. I quit poker after having seen him call out for god several times. I find it such a disgusting thing.

Then when Yang blew his load after sucking out on lee childs I felt like punching him in the face.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

only watched the first ep so far, some thoughts:
- this FT sucks, no one here would be a good champion for the game.
- Oh man, the god stuff is tilt inducing.
- That guy with the Stewie Tshirt should not have asked to see the mucked hand. Beyond the fact that it's just douchey, Yang has 22 or something there sometimes.
- Also, re: stewie shirt, Family Guy hasn't been funny in like 4 years, get a new shirt.
- People I know who have met him say Khan is a good guy, so I'll take their word for it, but he's horrible on tv, and his play, especially but not exclusively the dark push, sucked.
- Yang isn't championship caliber by any means, but if I were to list like the 5-10 worst plays in that ep, I don't think any would be his.
- This FT sucks.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

Jerry Yang prays to God, he wins WSOP ME.

I pray to God, a piedgon sh*ts on my car.

NH

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

LOL at Bill Gazes. Well played Shizz.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

that was the worst final table of any year.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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that was the worst final table of any year.

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I seriously doubt that.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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1. We are talking about a TV show that was cut to provide entertainment value to about 1.8 million first-run viewers, about half of which do NOT watch any other form of poker on TV during the year.

A lot of what makes an "entertaining" TV show is contrived or pre-planned in some way.

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Uh, no [censored]? Not sure what this has to do with my assertion that the prayer was totally embarrassing. If anything I was thanking the editors for sparing us some blessings.


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2. As for the flags: they were my idea, not ESPN's.

With 3 clients at the final table (I did their single-event product endorsement deals)

I wanted as many flags of as many countries as possible in the arena for a specific purpose: the video, which will eventually be shopped around by ESPN International Syndication on behalf of Harrah's Entertainment at trade shows around the world (i.e. Sportel in Monaco, Shanghai, and Miami) to TV buyers and government gambling monopoly officials, has to illustrate that poker is no longer an "American-only" game and televised poker is no longer an "American-only" entertainment product.

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Huh? So you were trying to help ESPN and Harrah's make poker go global by buying flags for the people in the crowd? I think you used this as an excuse to talk about yourself and your clients.


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The composition of the 2007 WSOP ME FT, with only 3 out 9 players holding U.S. citizenship (Childs, Khan, and Watkinson), represents the present and future of poker.

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What does the country of origin for final table participants have to do with anything? Are you saying that in the future more non-Americans are going to be playing major tournaments? Again, no [censored].


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Those government officials in those territories will have be convinced that poker does NOT threaten their existing gambling monopoly revenue streams in order to allow poker to be shown on TV.

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I can definitely see how a couple of random people (related to your clients!) waving flags in the crowd will help in this regard [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

OliverT,

I hate most of what you do, but I think the flags/nationalism were a nice touch given the makeup of the final table.

The USA chant was still dickish though.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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OliverT,

I hate most of what you do, but I think the flags/nationalism were a nice touch given the makeup of the final table.

The USA chant was still dickish though.

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Get that damn bird off your shoulder.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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The USA chant was pure stupidity. So there's a guy from Laos and one from Vietnam/Canada, maybe they were rooting for the dealer?

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I think Jerry considers himself an American, as does his family.

I'm sure Tuan Lam considers himself Canadian.

Their passports probably show that they are in fact American and Canadian, respectively.

Did anyone criticize Joe Hachem and his crew for showing Aussie pride because he is ethnically Lebanese?

-Z

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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The USA chant was pure stupidity. So there's a guy from Laos and one from Vietnam/Canada, maybe they were rooting for the dealer?

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I think Jerry considers himself an American, as does his family.

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Jerry is NOT an American yet. He didn't apply for U.S. citizenship until after the main event.

As for the "USA" chants: I was not allowed inside the arena during the final table, so I was not able to stop the crowd from chanting "USA, USA". I don't believe the "USA, USA" chants were appropriate given that Jerry won't be an American until the 3rd quarter of 2009.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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The USA chant was still dickish though.

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I do agree with you. The "USA, USA" chants were inappropriate because Jerry is NOT an American yet. I was not allowed inside the arena so I couldn't stop the crowd from doing the chant.

Jerry has applied for U.S. citizenship, but due to the backlog in applications, I don't anticipate Jerry being granted U.S. citizenship until the 3rd quarter of 2009.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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The USA chant was pure stupidity. So there's a guy from Laos and one from Vietnam/Canada, maybe they were rooting for the dealer?

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I think Jerry considers himself an American, as does his family.

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Jerry is NOT an American yet. He didn't apply for U.S. citizenship until after the main event.

As for the "USA" chants: I was not allowed inside the arena during the final table, so I was not able to stop the crowd from chanting "USA, USA". I don't believe the "USA, USA" chants were appropriate given that Jerry won't be an American until the 3rd quarter of 2009.

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You wouldn't be able to stop a chant. You're not some all knowing poker god dude.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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The USA chant was still dickish though.

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I do agree with you. The "USA, USA" chants were inappropriate because Jerry is NOT an American yet. I was not allowed inside the arena so I couldn't stop the crowd from doing the chant.

Jerry has applied for U.S. citizenship, but due to the backlog in applications, I don't anticipate Jerry being granted U.S. citizenship until the 3rd quarter of 2009.

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lol, olivert is such an egomaniacal prick...

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

I realize this is a bit late but gawd damn i was getting tilted so hard watching Yang raise it up 6x bb preflop every [censored] hand. [censored] luckbox

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

God this final table was horrible to watch. At least last year, it seemed like everyone knew what they were doing, and it gave you the feeling that it takes a lot of skill to get there. This one looked like the kind of game from your home game in the way that it looked like it would be fun to be there, but you don't really feel like that you want to be there. In fact, the same goes for every final table this year. I guess it has something to do with the new graphics which I don't really like. It makes this year's WSOP look like some kind of cheap spin-off from the WSOP. Anyone with me there?

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

I realize that much has already been said here about the unprecedented overt religiosity shown at this final table--but I had a lot more to say about it. Roughly 2000 words more, in fact. So instead of cramming it all in here, I'll just direct interested readers to my blog, where I posted it:

http://pokergrump.blogspot.com/2007/...ker-table.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/24nlla

Comments are welcome, here or on my blog.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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I realize that much has already been said here about the unprecedented overt religiosity shown at this final table--but I had a lot more to say about it. Roughly 2000 words more, in fact. So instead of cramming it all in here, I'll just direct interested readers to my blog, where I posted it:

http://pokergrump.blogspot.com/2007/...ker-table.html



Comments are welcome, here or on my blog.

[/ QUOTE ]


That was an entertaining read.

But all the chapter and verse you quoted suggests that you may be more obsessed than the people who were there.

In the middle of a tourney where each hand can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, people do lots of weird things, but its all in the heat of the moment.

Raymond Rahme rooting for baby cards and wanting to kiss Jerry Yang's picture of his kids was just as weird as the praying was.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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It makes this year's WSOP look like some kind of cheap spin-off from the WSOP. Anyone with me there?

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Um... no?

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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by the way....lets all say thanks to superuberbob for that great avatar...brings back fond memories of the 1st time i notcied it when we were watching the FT live on pay-per-view a few months back

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I wish it would go away.... sometimes I get distracted for hours watching it!

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

jerry yang really isn't that special, stupid aggressive, he relies on his aggressive raises ONLY, he never bothers to try and read the other opponents. I think tat alex guy (russian) and the S.African Ramme are much more solid players. what a disgrace for recent WSOP events, all amateur donks win it, Gold, Yang, and the infamous MOneymaker

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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Guess this isn't surprising, but ESPN didn't show one of the most interesting hands I remember while watching live. When it was four handed, Krevchenko opened OTB IIRC and Lam called with Ac Qc. Flop came with three lowish cards, and Lam check/called. Turn bricked and it checked through, river also bricked. Lam bet out (as a bluff I guess?), Krevchenko called, and Lam's AQ was good. I assume Krevchenko had AJ/AT, but I don't remember the details of the hand and I would have been curious to see the exact action and bet sizes again, as well as Alex's hole cards.

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Sounds like Hand 136. From http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/...day7/page13.htm

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Hand #136 - Alex Kravchenko has the button in seat 2, he raises to 1.4 million, and Tuan Lam calls from the big blind. The flop comes {8-Clubs}{7-Spades}{4-Clubs}, and both players check. The turn card is the {8-Hearts}, Lam bets 3 million, and Kravchenko calls. There is now 9.25 million in the pot.

The river card is the {J-Diamonds}, and both players check. Lam shows {A-Clubs}{Q-Clubs} for ace high, and Kravchenko mucks. Tuan Lam takes the pot.

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Kravchenko wasn't showing his hole cards to the camera anyway, so I don't think we would have found out what he had.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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God this final table was horrible to watch. At least last year, it seemed like everyone knew what they were doing, and it gave you the feeling that it takes a lot of skill to get there. This one looked like the kind of game from your home game in the way that it looked like it would be fun to be there, but you don't really feel like that you want to be there. In fact, the same goes for every final table this year. I guess it has something to do with the new graphics which I don't really like. It makes this year's WSOP look like some kind of cheap spin-off from the WSOP. Anyone with me there?

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Yeh, no.

This table would have been more interesting if Allen Cunningham were there. Something tells me he wouldn't have tried to bluff an unbluffable SB big stack all-in with A7o.

-Z

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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Hand #136 - Alex Kravchenko has the button in seat 2, he raises to 1.4 million, and Tuan Lam calls from the big blind. The flop comes {8-Clubs}{7-Spades}{4-Clubs}, and both players check. The turn card is the {8-Hearts}, Lam bets 3 million, and Kravchenko calls. There is now 9.25 million in the pot.

The river card is the {J-Diamonds}, and both players check. Lam shows {A-Clubs}{Q-Clubs} for ace high, and Kravchenko mucks. Tuan Lam takes the pot.

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Kravchenko wasn't showing his hole cards to the camera anyway, so I don't think we would have found out what he had.

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Sounds like he might have had a smaller flush draw.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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OliverT,

I hate most of what you do, but I think the flags/nationalism were a nice touch given the makeup of the final table.

The USA chant was still dickish though.

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"Tue Jul 17 2007 21:59 PST | Posted by BJNemeth
Hand #113 - Jerry Yang

Hand #113 - Jerry Yang has the button in seat 4, he raises to 2 million, and Tuan Lam calls from the small blind. The flop comes J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Lam bets 3 million, Yang raises to 9 million, and Lam thinks for about two minutes before he folds. Jerry Yang wins the pot, and a few fans in the crowd start weakly cheering "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!"

The chant seems to be more about good-natured fun than anything else, because the foreigners still alive at the final table (representing South Africa, Russia, and Canada) have such strong national support in the crowd. "

-Z

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

This main event will be completely forgettable in the end.

ESPN's final table coverage was piss poor at best.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

Where is Kenny Tran when you need him? This was damn near unwatchable.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

I too was offended by all the praying. But you have to remember, this isn't even really a gambling venture for most of these people at this point. This is a once-in-a-lifetime, make-more-money-than-I-ever-will-be-able-to-at-any-other-point moment.

Jerry Yang wasn't praying to win a gambling contest, per se. He was praying to win $8.25 million, to make his family comfortable and do some charity work he believes in.

He seized the moment, while the other players seized up at the moment. He was a complete afterthought coming into the table, sitting eighth in chips. What did he do? Raise, raise, raise. Raise odd amounts, amounts that "aren't right," put players out of their comfort zone.

The other players, all hanging on for dear life except Hilm, actually started laughing amongst themselves when Yang raised all the time. "This guy's so stupid. Look what he's doing." What he was doing was winning.

Yang is a terrible ambassador for poker, but he deserved to win the tournament.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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Can ANYONE explain how a rational player could take this blind push approach?

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since khan was going to fold for 3.5m more after putting 6m in

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

I had a separate tab open with the PokerNews live coverage of the Final Tables, so I thought I'd compare the hands shown on ESPN with the actual hands.

1. Hand 6
2. Hand 9
3. Hand 14
4. Hand 15
5. Hand 18
6. Hand 21
7. Hand 28
8. Hand 40
9. Hand 42
10. Hand 48
11. Hand 50
12. Hand 55
13. Hand 56

Episode 2
14. Hand 58
15. Hand 60
16. Hand 78
17. Hand 92
18. Hand 95
19. Hand 108
20. Hand 127
21. Hand 129
22. Hand 149
23. Hand 167
24. Hand 169
25. Hand 205

During the last hand Lon said that Lam was "putting the pressure on early," referring to the earliness of the heads-up portion. Actually, it was the 36th heads up hand.

4 handed play lasted a long time, which is why there were such huge gaps in hands.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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Going back to the coverage. I take it that this was a first in televised WSOP history where only one hand of heads up play was shown.

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IIRC, the tournament of champions featuring Hellmuth and Matusow (I think it was 2005 TOC) had a heads up portion that lasted over 50 hands. Only one hand was shown, because they spent so much time covering the Hellmuth/Matusow feud.

I think the 2005 heads up portion, they only showed one or two hands between Dannennman and Hachem.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Going back to the coverage. I take it that this was a first in televised WSOP history where only one hand of heads up play was shown.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, the tournament of champions featuring Hellmuth and Matusow (I think it was 2005 TOC) had a heads up portion that lasted over 50 hands. Only one hand was shown, because they spent so much time covering the Hellmuth/Matusow feud.

I think the 2005 heads up portion, they only showed one or two hands between Dannennman and Hachem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both in 2005 and 2004, they showed two hands of heads-up. But those heads-up matches only went seven or eight hands.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

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Yang absolutely raped this final table. I watched it live, and I can tell you the man was raising / re raising every other hand, and was absolutely fearless. He played like a [censored] genius - he KNEW he was one of the worst players at the table, and was WILLING to get all his money in preflop as a slight dog against a better player - because he realized this was his best shot for knocking people out and winning the event.

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You're giving him way, way, way too much credit. His thought process seemed to go more like this: "If I just keep nagging the Creator of the Universe enough, he will re-shuffle the deck so that I win, whatever I'm all-in with."

Makes sense, since according to many, He has a hard-on for poker, and would rather preside over a poker tournament than, say, try to fix some of the mess causing children to starve and otherwise die in horrendous ways around the globe.

(Yeah, I'm also pretty tilted about this donkey-[censored] houlier-than-thou [censored] winning the Main Event.)

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

How long did Yang and the other guy play heads up?

ETA-The flags and chanting were retarded.

And Yang looked really creepy kissing that picture. YUCK.

Re: WSOP on ESPN thread (10/9 - ME Final Table)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Going back to the coverage. I take it that this was a first in televised WSOP history where only one hand of heads up play was shown.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, the tournament of champions featuring Hellmuth and Matusow (I think it was 2005 TOC) had a heads up portion that lasted over 50 hands. Only one hand was shown, because they spent so much time covering the Hellmuth/Matusow feud.

I think the 2005 heads up portion, they only showed one or two hands between Dannennman and Hachem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both in 2006 2005 and 2004, they showed two hands of heads-up. But those heads-up matches only went seven or eight hands.

[/ QUOTE ]