Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

um ... the 4 toed statue was standing, was it not? buddha statues are typically sitting cross legged ... think people, think.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
um ... the 4 toed statue was standing, was it not? buddha statues are typically sitting cross legged ... think people, think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's not necessarily a buddha...I said that because it just sort of vaguely looks like one. It definitely does look like a statue though.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Here's something i've noticed about LOST that has been highlighted in this thread: Events from an individual episode often don't make sense in the context of a realistic narrative (even given the working assumptions of the show, e.g. time travel, healing island), but they do make sense formally.

One of the key formal elements of LOST is the balance between Jack and Locke. The episode title "Man of Science, Man of Faith" highlights the basic distinction between the characters - Jack's pragmatism opposes Locke's mysticism. Many other traits balance as well.

Jack wants nothing more than to leave the island, and he even aranged to take the submarine to the mainland. Locke demonstrated his devotion to the island by blowing up the submarine.

Jack needs to lead a group, while Locke is more of a loner (althouh he accepts proteges such as Charlie and Boone).

The producers have said several times that this season is about the Others. As far as that's true, the story of the others can be divided into two parts: Jack's experience and Locke's experience. The differences in the men's experiences reflects the differences in their character traits. In captivity, Jack's environment exposes him to technology (the surveillance cameras) and experiments, which belong to the realm of science. His captivity is a symbolic escape from the island. The others transport him to another island, they show him TV from the outside world, and they allow him to perform sugery in an imitation of his previous life. Sawyer and Kate accompany Jack to the Hydra base, and their role in his experience illustrates his affinity for groups.

Locke's experiences the others in a very different way. Shortly after he joins them, they abandon their houses and set off on a hike, bringing them closer to nature. Locke metaphorically escapes the outside world by doing on the island what he could not do elsewhere - killing his father. Locke's encounter with Jacob echoes his earlier mystical experiences, such as his vision of the Sydney airport. And no other losties accompany Locke on his journey, which satisfies his preference for solitude.

In short, Jack's and Locke's experience of the others reflect their own natures.

So while some things may not make sense in isolation, they may fit into a larger picture. After all, LOST is a mosaic.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

What do we know about Penny's dad? he obv knew about the island.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

1.) Maybe Jacob didn't mean help me like he was a prisoner, but help me as in 'join me.'
2.) As for richard going and recruiting or the others leaving the island, the dharmites already had the sub on the island when they were massacred.
3.) Inside the communication station where mikhail was living there were docs and maps of every dharma hatch(station) on the island. So the hostiles after taking over could of found out if there was anyone in these hatch's and choose to let them live or die.
No one is mentioning the fact that jacob went totally ballistic when locke shined his light inside the cabin, showing physical manifestion. Was it because he is from a different time before technology of any kind and this device (flashlight) seemed menacing??

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
WAIT A SEC...polar bear + the sign are both on the island. That upside down Buddha statue thing may be the 4 toed statue!

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I see some pyramids too. Egyptian aliens ftw?? That could explain Richard's penchant for eye-liner [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WAIT A SEC...polar bear + the sign are both on the island. That upside down Buddha statue thing may be the 4 toed statue!

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I see some pyramids too. Egyptian aliens ftw?? That could explain Richard's penchant for eye-liner [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That could be a ladder in the lower right too. Could go along with the idea that the island is Jacob's Ladder, ie a link between Heaven and Earth.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

I was not being srs [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

But, I looked at it again and I think those are just volcanoes, which we already know about, sort of.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

I know you weren't being serious about the pyramids, but I'm still curious about the possible ladder.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want more info about Kelvin. When Desmond lands, Kelvin asks "are you him?" then when Locke land Desmond asks "are you him?" I think Des knows more than he's said.

Remember too that Locke actually answers "yes" to Desmond. Maybe a bit of foreshadowing?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure this is ancient history.

kelvin and dude push buttons in hatch. dude tells kelvin they're waiting on replacements. dude wigs out and kills himself. desmond shows up and kelvin asks him the snowman joke to confirm if he's dharma. kelvin explains the joke to desmond. desmond accidentally kills kelvin. locke shows up and desmond asks him the snowman joke. him = new button pusher.

locke said "yes" to the question because desmond had a gun and that's how locke rolls. he gave up the gig when it became clear that he didn't know the punchline.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

I did a little analysis of the painting. There looks like a bird of some sort. I say crane is likely due to the Dharma station name. The "ladder" that people see seems to me a 3D piece of the painting (corrugated steel I think), as is the upper left thing (a board?).

http://www.daveyg.com/Pictures/LostPainting.jpg

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

im reading this entire thread after just watching the episode...holy god this episode was insane, and insanely good.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Do you guys think Richard could be a clone? It would kind of make sense in light of the whole pregnancy issue if they cloned people instead.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

The thing you marked as CRANE looks more like a snake with his tongue out to me.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
I did a little analysis of the painting. There looks like a bird of some sort. I say crane is likely due to the Dharma station name. The "ladder" that people see seems to me a 3D piece of the painting (corrugated steel I think), as is the upper left thing (a board?).

http://www.daveyg.com/Pictures/LostPainting.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

The bird you have circled looks more like a swan, the bird just below the crane text looks like it could be a crane.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Dear LOST writers,

Please don't kill Locke. I doubt you would be silly enough to do it, but it would be such a bold and shocking move that you might feel tempted to go ahead and do it. Don't. Cuz it would be really lame and not as cool as you think it would be. If you feel you have to kill someone, kill Charlie or Hurley instead.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

I've got a quick question: What's the Adam and Eve thing that people are mentioning? I watched the entire 1st and 2nd seasons and don't remember anything about it from then, although I did skip several episodes of the third season after they went on break.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's something i've noticed about LOST that has been highlighted in this thread: Events from an individual episode often don't make sense in the context of a realistic narrative (even given the working assumptions of the show, e.g. time travel, healing island), but they do make sense formally.

One of the key formal elements of LOST is the balance between Jack and Locke. The episode title "Man of Science, Man of Faith" highlights the basic distinction between the characters - Jack's pragmatism opposes Locke's mysticism. Many other traits balance as well.

Jack wants nothing more than to leave the island, and he even aranged to take the submarine to the mainland. Locke demonstrated his devotion to the island by blowing up the submarine.

Jack needs to lead a group, while Locke is more of a loner (althouh he accepts proteges such as Charlie and Boone).

The producers have said several times that this season is about the Others. As far as that's true, the story of the others can be divided into two parts: Jack's experience and Locke's experience. The differences in the men's experiences reflects the differences in their character traits. In captivity, Jack's environment exposes him to technology (the surveillance cameras) and experiments, which belong to the realm of science. His captivity is a symbolic escape from the island. The others transport him to another island, they show him TV from the outside world, and they allow him to perform sugery in an imitation of his previous life. Sawyer and Kate accompany Jack to the Hydra base, and their role in his experience illustrates his affinity for groups.

Locke's experiences the others in a very different way. Shortly after he joins them, they abandon their houses and set off on a hike, bringing them closer to nature. Locke metaphorically escapes the outside world by doing on the island what he could not do elsewhere - killing his father. Locke's encounter with Jacob echoes his earlier mystical experiences, such as his vision of the Sydney airport. And no other losties accompany Locke on his journey, which satisfies his preference for solitude.

In short, Jack's and Locke's experience of the others reflect their own natures.

So while some things may not make sense in isolation, they may fit into a larger picture. After all, LOST is a mosaic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kudos to you. Nice job.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've got a quick question: What's the Adam and Eve thing that people are mentioning? I watched the entire 1st and 2nd seasons and don't remember anything about it from then, although I did skip several episodes of the third season after they went on break.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adam and Eve are in one of the first few episodes. I'm not exactly sure which one, but I think that it's one of Jack's episodes. It's where he is following his father and then finds the water supply and then followed by the caves, to where they eventually live. Adam and Eve were the two skeletons that they found at the caves. I think that when they were discovered, it was mentioned that the rate of their clothing decay means that they had been dead something like 50 years, but I could be wrong.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Didn't they have some sort of object on them? Like a stone or something? I can't remember.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't they have some sort of object on them? Like a stone or something? I can't remember.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think they had a black stone and a white stone.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Didn't they have some sort of object on them? Like a stone or something? I can't remember.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think they had a black stone and a white stone.

[/ QUOTE ]
Rose and whats-his-name FTW

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
The bird you have circled looks more like a swan, the bird just below the crane text looks like it could be a crane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a sec...the station was called the Swan. Oops. So, it's probably a swan.

I looked at that thing under it, but I can't tell if it's actually something, or just some random paint color.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Didn't they have some sort of object on them? Like a stone or something? I can't remember.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think they had a black stone and a white stone.

[/ QUOTE ]
Rose and whats-his-name FTW

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been a long time since I've seen that episode, but didn't Jack take the two stones? Possibly ending up being him (and Kate?) as the eventual Adam and Eve if the time loop theory is correct.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Do we think Ben can really hear Jacob? It might have been just some sketchy scripting, but Ben and 'Jacob' first interaction made Ben look like a loon (and def meant to look this way). If Ben can see and hear Jacob, why didn't he hear what he said to Locke?

I hope the answers don't get too paranormal, I keep clinging to the producers promise that everything that happened could be explained reasonably and could possibly happen. But Jacob could be communicating telepathically?

Also looked like Ben decided not to finish Locke off after Locke told him what he heard "help me". I think Ben has had the upper hand the entire time, he would only even tell Locke about Jacob if he wanted Locke to know. I think he wanted to find out what Locke could see / hear.

Finally, why are the original natives from 30+ years ago now doing family planning research?

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

The thing I don't get about that scene is why Ben would treat Jacob that way? If Jacob is truly to be revered and feared - why would Ben shake his chair and tell him to stop and that he's 'had his fun'. Just doesn't seem like the way you'd treat a deity.

I think it was supposed to LOOK like Ben was insane - but like everything with this show, it's never the low-hanging fruit. Was too obvious.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
I keep clinging to the producers promise that everything that happened could be explained reasonably and could possibly happen. But Jacob could be communicating telepathically?


[/ QUOTE ]

I gave up on that weeks ago. invisibility?


[ QUOTE ]
Finally, why are the original natives from 30+ years ago now doing family planning research?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking that Richard (long haired one from when Ben was a kid) is not as wild as he appeared to be. They showed him as raggedy, but that's also how we originally saw the others. He's obviously "now" a clean cut other who recruits people to the island. obviously a key story line for the future will be "who are the natives?". my out of nowhere guess is that they are another or earlier branch of Dharma.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
The thing I don't get about that scene is why Ben would treat Jacob that way? If Jacob is truly to be revered and feared - why would Ben shake his chair and tell him to stop and that he's 'had his fun'. Just doesn't seem like the way you'd treat a deity.

I think it was supposed to LOOK like Ben was insane - but like everything with this show, it's never the low-hanging fruit. Was too obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Ben was somewhat mocking Locke and I'm not sure if Jacob actually speaks to Ben. But he obv did not hear what he said to Locke and was freaked when Locke accused him of saying something when he obv didn't. Maybe Ben has gained some kind of control over Jacob, thus the "help me phrase".

also u kind of have to go back and look at all the times the smoke monster/island got people to do stuff for it.

i.e. Ben seemed to want Locke to no longer believe in pushing the button--and thus not push it...why?

The smoke monster/island wanted Locke to keep pushing the button and went so far as getting Ecko to try and make Locke believe in the island/button blah blah blah.

The big question is...if Locke obv doesn't die--why didn't Ben want to kill him. Was it simply a lame tv thing, cuz Ben def seems the type who could put a bullet in Locke's head if he wanted him dead. But Locke telling him what Jacob said seemed to really unnerve/bother him so maybe that is why he leaves him just wounded.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Didn't they have some sort of object on them? Like a stone or something? I can't remember.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think they had a black stone and a white stone.

[/ QUOTE ]
Rose and whats-his-name FTW

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, officially there was a black and a white stone. It was picked up by Jack and he didn't mention anything to Locke about it when he asked what was found. That was the last time that the stones were mentioned. Like I mentioned earlier, the skeletons were said to have been in the cave deteriating at least 40 - 50 years, based on the level of decay on their clothing.

My best guess of this is that they are indeed the bodies of Penny and Desmond, who in a prior episode showed what could have been the two stones in that first desmond episode of the second part of season 3.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who the f is annie

[/ QUOTE ]

good question. ben said he was 'one of' the ones who didn't end up in the hole. the scene made it look like he was the only one, but when he said that it seemed as though it was quite possible there were others in on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't been through the whole thread yet, so this may have already been said, but It seems clear to me that kelvin and rosinsky survived (though obviously they were not in on it).

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
why did everyone just watch as locke beat up mikhail? I was about to say what the last poster said that Ben can see dead people, but since Locke can obv see mikhail he isn't really dead right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that deasmond, jin, charlie, hurley, and locke have all seen mikhail after he "died".

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It may have been bad makeup work

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty his "youth" was intentional, to make the origin/status of the 'hostiles' more interesting than them just being other regular people who happen to be on the island.


question:

where does the gassing/execution of the DHARMA people fit in with the timeline of the Hatch? Who was occupying the hatch at the time of the gassing? Was it just Radzinsky, Radzinsky and Kelvin, or just Kelvin? Why were they/he spared?

[/ QUOTE ]

They were probably spared because they were in the hatch at the time. There were probably also survivors in the arrow station. (remember both stations had quarantine written on the inside of their doors).

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Please please please let Jacob be played by Victor Garber.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please please please let Jacob be played by Victor Garber.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

I think a very important question is how the Others get their funding. We know they are not affiliated with Dharma now, so how do they get the money to recruit people to the island, and how did they get files on every one of the crash survivors? If they are really just natives of the island, when did they branch out and start leaving the island and recruiting people and such. And also, why was Dharma still making food drops on the island? Remember in season 1 where a parachute drops a ton of food near the hatch during the lockdown? Why would Dharma still be dropping food after almost their entire crew was killed years ago?

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

[ QUOTE ]
We know they are not affiliated with Dharma now... why was Dharma still making food drops on the island?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know how you can assert the former so confidently and then ask the latter. I don't have any answers or even guesses, but I do think this will be fully resolved on the way to discovering what the island is and who Locke is.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

True, we don't know they aren't affiliated with Dharma, but it doesn't seem likely that Dharma would fund and support the hostiles after they murdered almost all of the Dharma workers.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Obviously completely wild conjecture, but if Dharma is some sort of eugenics experiment, the workers were considered a tainted population with basically no way of preventing bad genes mixing into good, and Dharma was ruthless, why wouldn't they just kill them all off?

That's just one off-the-wall scenario, but there are plenty of reasons Dharma would sanction the removal of a bunch of non-persons, considering their demonstrative willingness to engage in other ethically questionable areas.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

Vince - those are good questions, and make for an excellent segue into some theory questions:

What if: Naomi works for Dharma, and Dharma faked the crash because they didn't want anybody looking for the island.

What if: Naomi is there to kill Desmond so his body can be found somewhere else, because Dharma knows that someone with enough money and enough resources is eventually going to trace him there (Penny).

What if: 'Mainland' Dharma thought their people were still in control of the island, and information otherwise would bring a death squad to the island?

I can see a season finale cliffhanger out of the last one.

We know the Flame station can receive TV signals (Mikhail's plane crash research), but if it cannot send video signals and only voice, the hostiles/Ben could likely convince the mainlanders that everything was still fine. The food drops seemed to be automated by the chess game (for palette drop, enter 24). Also, "has there been an incursion on this station by the Hostiles? If so, enter 77." What if Locke entering 77 is what triggered Naomi's trip to the island?

Of course, these are not end-all be-all answers because there are some holes, but as a framework, I can see something being worked out with it.

Re: ***OFFICIAL*** LOST Season 3 Episode 20 Discussion -spoiler free-
 

I'm thinking that with the people still left to be killed by the end of the season, I think it would be worth it to figure out who's likely to die.

One thing I was thinking is the difference of Rose and Bernard. It wouldn't surprise me to see them noted along the lines of those that are likely to expire soon. They really haven't played much of a role since they were put back together, and aside from their one flashback episode, have been all but non-existant. It also seems that Charlie is destined to die as well, and he can probably be counted to. If my calculations are right, that would probably leave one more person to die. I have a feeling that one of the hostiles is probably going to go too. With everything that is going to go on in the next few episodes, it would make sense for someone to die.