Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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I never claimed AP was happy that they got caught. Nor did anyone else. You're attacking a straw man.

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I know you never claimed it, hence why I asked (rather than assume what your answer would be).

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Your phrasing "do you really believe" and "do you honestly believe" implied that you took that as my position. I ignored it, because it seemed irrelevant or at least obvious. To answer it now, I'm sure AP regrets what happened.

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What does this tell you?

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Regret is not black and white. They may regret it, but ultimately they don't need to consider it a big deal, because their business is still going strong. The consequences were in fact probably much less severe than AP and other poker sites would have expected. Do you think poker sites are now going to be more or less worried about fairness and security than before? I'll give my opinion: They're going to be less worried about it since "the market" is showing indifference.

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If there's a built in incentive against cheating, even if mild, then there's never a rational reason to cheat.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] This is completely false.

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How is it false? Just because you say so?

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I misunderstood what you were saying. You're saying that with all positive and negative incentives weighed against each other if there is more weight to the negatives then then it is irrational to take the action. I understand now. But I don't understand why you'd assume the incentives will always weight more on the negative end.

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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FWIW, other ACists might be asserting those things but I'm doing no such thing. I'm saying that people whine about a lot of [censored] that they dont really care about because whining is cheaper than acting. Its sort of irrelevant, to me, whether its a completely free market or not. In a 100% free market, people will still "want" ponies and not have them.



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The reason for my starting this thread was that a real life example of market regulating itself has proven to be completely inadequate relative to the facts revealed.

If you are not making any of the assertions above that phil addressed, you seem to be saying that even though one of the central tenants of the A/C cult (self regulation of the market) has proven in the real world to be ineffectual, you don't really care but still believe in A/C anyway.

True, people like to whine and wouldn't whine any less in ACland. But, many people don't want to whine all the time or want someone to do something so they will stop whining. I would like to see consequences imposed on those involved in the AP fraud so I don't have to whine the rest of my life about poker sites cheating their customers. Whining makes me look unmanly and I don't like to behave in a unmanly way. So, I'm willing to live with a thug government if they can prevent/address situations that would cause me to whine.

I'm not trying to make your head explode, or anything. I would just like to know why this situation is acceptable in ACland and why it would be any better.

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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The reason for my starting this thread was that a real life example of market regulating itself has proven to be completely inadequate relative to the facts revealed.


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One market that has out of whack consumer preferences because the majority of the players are irrational and gamble to feed their irrational needs. Hardly an example that can be generalized to all markets. There are tons of examples of real consumer markets where one company tries to reduce the value of the product and a more efficient and innovative competitor comes in and gains massive market share.

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If you are not making any of the assertions above that phil addressed,

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I addressed them and I've asked several times for actual numbers. How can we talk about the effects of this scandal if nobody is willing to make a bb/100 calculation. We are trying to determine the decrease in the quality of the product and yet none of you have come forward with any empirical evidence.

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I would like to see consequences imposed on those involved in the AP fraud so I don't have to whine the rest of my life about poker sites cheating their customers.

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Online poker is already illegal and yet people continue to play. How is any government going to regulate this market?

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I'm not trying to make your head explode, or anything. I would just like to know why this situation is acceptable in ACland and why it would be any better.

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If you are interested in moving this discussion forward you guys should stop making unfounded assertions and start making rational arguements.

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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The reason for my starting this thread was that a real life example of market regulating itself has proven to be completely inadequate relative to the facts revealed.


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I don't know whether ACists would consider this a completely free market or not, in my opinion that is completely besides the point. It's still WAY too early to tell what damage is going to be done to AP. Believe it or not there are still A LOT of people who don't know the facts. I was at a home game last week, and there were two regular online players there who had no clue what it was about. One guy had heard something, but he was convinced that it was Poker Stars involved. The other guy, (who used to be an AP affiliate!) had NO CLUE anything had gone on.

I think one point some ACists might make is that if you really don't think enough is being done to AP, then do something yourself! Start a Consumer Reports esque group, spend money advertising about AP's wrong doing so more people get informed, the government isn't needed for that.

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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FWIW, other ACists might be asserting those things but I'm doing no such thing. I'm saying that people whine about a lot of [censored] that they dont really care about because whining is cheaper than acting. Its sort of irrelevant, to me, whether its a completely free market or not. In a 100% free market, people will still "want" ponies and not have them.



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The reason for my starting this thread was that a real life example of market regulating itself has proven to be completely inadequate relative to the facts revealed.

If you are not making any of the assertions above that phil addressed, you seem to be saying that even though one of the central tenants of the A/C cult (self regulation of the market) has proven in the real world to be ineffectual, you don't really care but still believe in A/C anyway.

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Wait, has statism somehow been vindicated here?

All of this happened while you're sitting in the US, living under the biggest government the world has ever seen. And yet your not "safe" from these bozos.

ACist constantly repeat that AC is NOT utopian. It doesn't make murderers, theives, or cheats magically disappear. Neither do states, of course.

If this is a case of "AC in Action" it's also (and moreso) a case of States in Action.

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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If this is a case of "AC in Action" it's also (and moreso) a case of States inaction .

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QFT and FYP

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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If this is a case of "AC in Action" it's also (and moreso) a case of States inaction .

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QFT and FYP

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I don't know if that's true - in this case the state has taken the most action it possibly can by banning the activity. It isn't state inaction, it's state ineffectiveness.

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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It isn't state inaction, it's state ineffectiveness.


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yep I can think of a few more "I" words for it.
Like

impotence
irrelevance
ignorance
idiocy
illegitimacy

etc etc.

inaction was just convenient due to PVNs use of "In Action"

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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Wait, has statism somehow been vindicated here?

All of this happened while you're sitting in the US, living under the biggest government the world has ever seen. And yet your not "safe" from these bozos.

ACist constantly repeat that AC is NOT utopian. It doesn't make murderers, theives, or cheats magically disappear. Neither do states, of course.

If this is a case of "AC in Action" it's also (and moreso) a case of States in Action.

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Statism always gets a free pass. Don't you know the rules? We have to thoroughly prove everything before we begin to have a semblance of a point. But they throw darts and then they're on to something.

Social and systematic indoctrination vs. truth and reasoning is an interesting battle.

Also, it's worth mentioning that no established poker site had ever been caught cheating its players before the US government interfered with the market. No need to be so result oriented, but since this thread is inherently result oriented, I'm willing to speculate that if AP didn't have such an artificial lock on some market share (because of the fewer options and the added difficulty of moving money around and trying new sites) that they would have been less likely to attempt this.

Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
 

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Also, it's worth mentioning that no established poker site had ever been caught cheating its players before the US government interfered with the market.

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Planet Poker had a rigged RNG. They went out of business after it was uncovered.

Dutch Boyd [censored] a bunch of his customers. He hasn't been able to get back into the business in any significant way since.