Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

Blarg,

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Jiu-jitsu throws can still be practiced plenty, but you have to be a lot more careful, since done exactly right, you can only do them to someone once. Other throws in judo that just dump someone on the mat are derived from jiu-jitsu throws designed to wrench an arm out of its socket on the way down, or to drive a joint full force into the ground and break it.


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The problem is that those jujitsu moves cannot be practiced against a resisting opponent at full speed. You have to get the technique right the first time you ever do it under a combat situation.

And that's assuming that the technique you're being taught works at all. You've never done it - sensei has never done it - his sensei has never done it; back over how many generations? Ever played chinese whispers? How do you even know that it ever worked in the first place?

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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Well, find me someone who has killed a man using these techniques, and sure, they'll be battle tested. Honestly, I'm completely talking out of my ass, but I don't think that just because peasants back in the Shogun days of Japan learned a specific art and used it in battle means that it is the most practical art for you because you are not learning it in battle, you are not putting your life on the line and refining your technique in those situations, and most importantly should not be learning to defend yourselves from Samurai because you live in the 21st century USA. MMA and the like come closest to simulating the type of weaponless environment you'd most likely find yourself into today, and combined with some form of weapons training would make a good base, at least to my logical way of thinking.

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you arent "battle tested" in mma though, thats my whole point.

yes, no one is going to advocate training by killing someone, but Im much more likely, if ever faced, to have wanted training on how to get to teh exact point where you have total control over someone and are 3 seconds from ripping an eye out (which is what the training points of other disciplines get you to), than training on how to pin someone on a mat. The mere fact that MMA fights last more than 30 seconds, adn that you are training for fighting that last more than 30 seconds should be the biggest indicator that a discipline, that teaches you how to end a fight in under 10 seconds is much better suited for self defence.

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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BJJ is alone better suited than MMA. MMA teaches you how to fightin in an octogan, w/ gloves, against opponent w/ rules. Give me a guy who has done nothing but train how to break a guys arm using BJJ, against a guy who has been trained how to last a few minutes in the ring any day. Like I said, MMA is a watered down version of fighting styles that are suited to defend yourself. Just because you are incorporating different parts of the disciplines into MMA, does not mean that MMA is better, this should be pretty clear. And lol at thinking MMA is the only thing that trains against resisting opponents....wtf?

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um... i thought that BJJ is incorporated into MMA?!

There is no way you can convince me that Royce Gracie hasn't
had some karate blocking training. He may eschew the strikes,
but he sure knows how to block. This implies some "mixed
martial arts" training.

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MMA is different for everyone who does it. Everyone learns certain basic grappling moves, the striking portion can vary a lot, as can the dependence on it. And there are other grappling styles that some people do or don't mix in, too. It's far from a resolved style, and that's probably a good thing in a lot of ways.

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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Blarg,

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Jiu-jitsu throws can still be practiced plenty, but you have to be a lot more careful, since done exactly right, you can only do them to someone once. Other throws in judo that just dump someone on the mat are derived from jiu-jitsu throws designed to wrench an arm out of its socket on the way down, or to drive a joint full force into the ground and break it.


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The problem is that those jujitsu moves cannot be practiced against a resisting opponent at full speed. You have to get the technique right the first time you ever do it under a combat situation.

And that's assuming that the technique you're being taught works at all. You've never done it - sensei has never done it - his sensei has never done it; back over how many generations? Ever played chinese whispers? How do you even know that it ever worked in the first place?

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anatomy classes is how you know.

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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the point is that in MMA, you are taught self restraint so as to not do permanent damage to someone else (throwing a guy onto his neck, breaking an arm, eye gouging etc) becuase it is against the rules of the sport. Why would you think that this is a better way to train than a discipline that teaches no self restraint?

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His point is that it's a lot easier to fight against a fully resisting opponent with a few moves outlawed rather than fight in slow motion against an opponent simulating these outlawed moves. Unless you actually practice eye gouging and breaking necks, it's a lot easier to go from full speed MMA and incorporate those moves than to go from theoretical no hold barred fighting and apply it at full speed.

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You can practice with resistance without actually gouging an eye. What happened to sparring?

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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the point is that in MMA, you are taught self restraint so as to not do permanent damage to someone else (throwing a guy onto his neck, breaking an arm, eye gouging etc) becuase it is against the rules of the sport. Why would you think that this is a better way to train than a discipline that teaches no self restraint?

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His point is that it's a lot easier to fight against a fully resisting opponent with a few moves outlawed rather than fight in slow motion against an opponent simulating these outlawed moves. Unless you actually practice eye gouging and breaking necks, it's a lot easier to go from full speed MMA and incorporate those moves than to go from theoretical no hold barred fighting and apply it at full speed.

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You can practice with resistance without actually gouging an eye. What happened to sparring?

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The difference is instincts. Martial Arts teaches you instincts to acheive a goal, in a fight situation the instinct of an MMA fighter is to win a match, the instinct of someone trained in a more lethal discipline is to punch an adams apple, or something similar.

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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the point is that in MMA, you are taught self restraint so as to not do permanent damage to someone else (throwing a guy onto his neck, breaking an arm, eye gouging etc) becuase it is against the rules of the sport. Why would you think that this is a better way to train than a discipline that teaches no self restraint?

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His point is that it's a lot easier to fight against a fully resisting opponent with a few moves outlawed rather than fight in slow motion against an opponent simulating these outlawed moves. Unless you actually practice eye gouging and breaking necks, it's a lot easier to go from full speed MMA and incorporate those moves than to go from theoretical no hold barred fighting and apply it at full speed.

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You can practice with resistance without actually gouging an eye. What happened to sparring?

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Like I said, I'm talking out of my ass on this topic as I've never seriously taken a martial art, but I know from other sports that there is a massive difference between practice speed and game speed. I know when I played football the defensive line sure was tougher to block in a game than in practice, does this not apply to martial arts?

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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the point is that in MMA, you are taught self restraint so as to not do permanent damage to someone else (throwing a guy onto his neck, breaking an arm, eye gouging etc) becuase it is against the rules of the sport. Why would you think that this is a better way to train than a discipline that teaches no self restraint?

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His point is that it's a lot easier to fight against a fully resisting opponent with a few moves outlawed rather than fight in slow motion against an opponent simulating these outlawed moves. Unless you actually practice eye gouging and breaking necks, it's a lot easier to go from full speed MMA and incorporate those moves than to go from theoretical no hold barred fighting and apply it at full speed.

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You can practice with resistance without actually gouging an eye. What happened to sparring?

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Like I said, I'm talking out of my ass on this topic as I've never seriously taken a martial art, but I know from other sports that there is a massive difference between practice speed and game speed. I know when I played football the defensive line sure was tougher to block in a game than in practice, does this not apply to martial arts?

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It applies in martial arts only for that mili-second before you do actual long term damage.

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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It applies in martial arts only for that mili-second before you do actual long term damage.

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So your technique isn't affected at all by the fact that you know that if you make a mistake, you still won't be seriously injured? Have you ever actually used your training to seriously injure/kill someone, and you know that the two are equivalent, or are you just assuming that you will be able to get it right the first time in real combat, as Danny said.

Re: Best fighting style for real-life situations
 

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Well, find me someone who has killed a man using these techniques, and sure, they'll be battle tested. Honestly, I'm completely talking out of my ass, but I don't think that just because peasants back in the Shogun days of Japan learned a specific art and used it in battle means that it is the most practical art for you because you are not learning it in battle, you are not putting your life on the line and refining your technique in those situations, and most importantly should not be learning to defend yourselves from Samurai because you live in the 21st century USA. MMA and the like come closest to simulating the type of weaponless environment you'd most likely find yourself into today, and combined with some form of weapons training would make a good base, at least to my logical way of thinking.

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There's a lot to be said for that, and of course we don't need to dodge spears anymore. I wasn't chopping MMA so much as the claims that all old styles are pure baloney that was never tested in real life, and that you can't train to do anything without carrying it through to full completion.