Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
 

Mike Matusow ftw!! End of thread.

Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
 

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I've won more tourneys than Phill Hellmuth fwiw.

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I can win more tournaments than Phil too.

That's all I have to say, time to multitable $1 sit-n-goes.

Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
 

HOW IS THIS RELATED TO TV POKER? ....needs to be moved...

-TheMan

Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
 

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To follow-up with something I thought of after I posted...

I think part of the reason we are having such a heated discussion is because poker tournament play has very little in the way of stat tracking in a manner analoguous to other professional sports. In baseball, we have the much argued-about home run record chase by Barry Bonds, and arguments about what his place is in baseball history with the cloud of possible "juicing". But at least there's a wealth of statistical data that can be referenced when talking about players relative achevements, even if they've played on objectively lousy teams. Poker doesn't really have anything to go on except wins, money won, etc. Just food for thought.

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I agree completely.

If poker continues to be a mainstream TV "sport," at some point, a chief governing body should step in, maintain records, have players register, and start keeping relevant statistics (win %, in the money %, and profit, not just gross earnings), at a minimum for $10,000 or bigger buy-in events.

Impossible under current conditions, but would be another great step in legitimizing tournament poker as a skill-based competition.

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Yeah, they could make up a ranking system, kinda like this.

Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
 

The best NL HE player ever is either Hellmuth or Ungar. You can hate Hellmuth all you want and I don't much like his antics either. But the guy has the best skills.

My top 5 would be these 5 in this order

Hellmuth
Ungar
Doyle
Ivey
Straus

If Ungar were alive and kept his life straight(neither was ever going to happen) he would be way ahead of Hellmuth and everyone else. That guy was amazing.

Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
 

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Isn't making fun of gobbo's weight getting old by now?

In all seriousness gobbo, you're wrong. At least you are for now. We don't know how good these young guys will be when they're decades into their poker career (assuming they stick with it). But as of now, Hellmuth is the best.

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Well, I would disagree. There you go. I'm done with this thread.

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This is because Shaniac destroyed your argument as much as the fact that you have nothing left to say.

The key point is ZJ's quote about PH, and your own admission that PH gets extra folds due to his image. So you are claiming that despite this advantage of his, the guys on your list are still better than him? The difference in skill between the top players is tiny compared to all those "extra folds". Crafting an image is as much a skill as correctly playing with a ~20BB stack.

Also, while it is possible that PH doesn't understand certain things about NLHE tourneys that the guys on your list do, those guys are way way behind him in live dynamics. Perhaps they will surpass him. Few would be surprised and personally, I expect it.

It seems like you are confusing a bunch of guys who have the talent to be the best with guys who actually are the best.

FWIW, I am not necessarily saying PH is better than those guys, just that your argument is severely lacking in substance.

P.S. I agree that making fun of Gobbo for his appearance is retarded.

Re: who is the best NL hold\'em player?
 

Chris Moneymaker...obviously