Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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Throughout history, especially American history, men have worried that their generation or the generation younger than them were being "feminized".

Arguments have ranged from too much masturbation, to a "non-manly" diet, to the industrialized jobs that took away the "skill" of a man's profession.

I doubt we have anything to worry about.

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Can you cite any sources here? I havent read a ton of history, but I dont really recall any past generations having this debate.

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I took an entire course last semester called "The History of Manhood". One book to read about it is "Manliness & Civilization" by Gail Bederman.

You could also look up who invented Graham crackers and why, or John Harvey Kellogg and the invention of his cereal brand.

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His original "Graham bread" was the centerpiece of the diet he created to suppress what he considered unhealthy carnal urges, the source of many maladies according to Graham. He also warned that ketchup and mustard induced insanity. He gained many followers including Will Keith Kellogg, and even set up boardinghouses, where his diet was observed, in New York, Boston and other cities.


Weird, I never new that is why those were invented. But it also proves my point more so than yours imo? He is trying to supress carnal urges (aggressive, testosterone-fueled, primal urges), urges that are usually associated with the males of the species. He is in essence saying that men are TOO manly, not that they arent manly enough (which is what your argument was)

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Well, the ideas of what masculinity changes with time as well. In that time period, manliness meant self-restraint. A man that could hold back his urges for liqour, drugs, gambling, fighting, and sex was considered the "ideal" man.

At that time women were depicted as morally weaker, based on how they were portrayed in the Church (Eve taking the apple).

Graham and Kellogg thought that men were becoming too feminized and weak, and thus had to show their self-restraint by eating crap like bland crackers and tasteless cereal flakes.

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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You need to give the boy (any boy) an emotional outlet that meets his needs while not harming anyone else, even when that outlet is outside the parameters of your own preferred outlets.

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Digression here, but I think in a thread about manliness it's pretty ironic to be having these concerns about appropriate emotional outlets for our young brothers out there.

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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Let's say I agree with you. What's wrong with feminized dudes? While the gender roles of the past seem like they did an okay job, is more homogeneity necessarily bad?

Full disclosure: I think I'm a pretty feminine dude in a lot of ways.

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Personally, yes, and Im sure Im taking a more extreme stance than most. But in places where people cant afford to treat their kids like pussies, or baby them (and there will ALWAYS be places like this), these boys will grow up to be men. Meanwhile, in America, people are asking whats wrong with feminized dudes, these boys grow up, and eventually have to surrender thier rights from people who will forcibly take them.

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lol. george w bush was a cheerleader in college. i think this thread is over now.

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So you consider what GWB did as manly for what he did? way to make a stupid correlation you [censored] douche bag.

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not sure what you mean but what i'm saying is gwb did about the girliest thing you can do in college and now he's definitely not having his rights taken away. you could even say his life is the opposite of having rights taken away.

your whole premise is pretty sexist actually. you don't have to be a man to be successful or powerful. and if you are a man you don't have to be a physically aggressive man to be successful or powerful.

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

I get what you are saying. But, I think there are certain traits that throughout time, you can ask anyone on the earth in any time period whether these traits were feminine or masculine traits and get an agreement. These are the traits that I am speaking of, not the traits being pushed by people with an agenda.

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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I get what you are saying. But, I think there are certain traits that throughout time, you can ask anyone on the earth in any time period whether these traits were feminine or masculine traits and get an agreement. These are the traits that I am speaking of, not the traits being pushed by people with an agenda.

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Tough to say, I'm not sure either way.

Another weird thing is that up to the 1920's boys wore dresses as kids and pink was their color. Blue was the color for girls.

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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I think it's very likely that there was a biological correlation at least at some point.

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Certainly. And there still is. We're still basically animals, prone to all the biological impulses that other animals are. Society may subdue or amplify those impulses, but they are still there.

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Whether that has persisted through time is not obvious to me, and thinking about it now it's not clear to me how one would establish biological instead of cultural derivation of this behavior. If nobody else finds this question interesting, fine, but I think it's pretty interesting.

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I don't profess to be any type of anthropology wizard or anything, but I would expect that dominant/aggressive male human behavior pre-dates what we consider culture/civilization. As civilization evolved, these roles were likely reflected in societal expectations. Now, it seems to me that societal expectations are changing, but the biology likely isn't. And if it is, it certainly isn't changing at the pace that our opinion of gender roles is.

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

The sexism stems from you calling cheerleading girlie. Superficial things like this have no bearing on masculine or feminine traits, and for you to equate something so asinine with being womanly speaks volumes.

you don't have to be a man to be successful or powerful.

I never said that.



if you are a man you don't have to be a physically aggressive man to be successful or powerful.

I never said that

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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I get what you are saying. But, I think there are certain traits that throughout time, you can ask anyone on the earth in any time period whether these traits were feminine or masculine traits and get an agreement. These are the traits that I am speaking of, not the traits being pushed by people with an agenda.

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Tough to say, I'm not sure either way.

Another weird thing is that up to the 1920's boys wore dresses as kids and pink was their color. Blue was the color for girls.

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I was dressed like a girl at my baptism!

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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I think it's very likely that there was a biological correlation at least at some point.

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Certainly. And there still is. We're still basically animals, prone to all the biological impulses that other animals are. Society may subdue or amplify those impulses, but they are still there.

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But how does one actually measure these influences? Do you agree that this is somewhat problematic?

Re: The feminization of todays youth
 

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I think it's very likely that there was a biological correlation at least at some point.

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Certainly. And there still is. We're still basically animals, prone to all the biological impulses that other animals are. Society may subdue or amplify those impulses, but they are still there.

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But how does one actually measure these influences? Do you agree that this is somewhat problematic?

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This is completely a guess, but I'd assume it's by comparing Western gender roles to gender roles in other civilizations.