Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

You bring up an interesting point. I never really considered reading a few pages of a book in a store 'theft' of intellectual property.
In fact, the bookstores seem pretty lax about tolerating such behavior.

I'm not sure I wholly agree with your argument but I'm not sure I completely disagree either.


Perhaps I can somehow still try to keep an open-mind about purchasing the book IF it happens to look really outstanding when I page through the contents.

But I know that the standards for me purchasing this book will be much higher now in order for me to bite the bullet and actually know that I'm providing a few pennies worth of income for this guy.

Before he opened his mouth continually and idiotically in this thread the standards were much lower and if the book looked merely decent I probably would have been adding it to my library.


But, again, his behavior will have nothing to do with whether I like the book or not.
It's just that now I won't be purchasing it unless I know that I really like it.
Whereas before I may have purchased it regardless.

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

[ QUOTE ]
You bring up an interesting point. I never really considered reading a few pages of a book in a store 'theft' of intellectual property.

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No one could possibly object to someone reading a few pages of a book, or even a chapter, to see if it was worth purchasing. Your original statement was that you would be reading the book in the bookstore. Not a few pages, the book.

There are many on these forums who have indicated (or recommnded to others) that they go someplace like B&N and sit down with a book and a cup of coffee and read the whole book in the store. That is theft.

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reading a book in a bookstore is theft of intellectual property. Theft is theft, whether you are stealing from a genius or a moron. Rationalize it however you want, you are still stealing. It is no different than downloading bootleg music or movies or software on the internet. It is no different than stealing cash from an obnoxious drunk at a casino. It's still his money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You better run down to the bookstore and let them know they are an accessory to theft of intellectual property. The bookstores around here provide chairs, sell you coffee and encourage you to come in and read. If I provided you a computer and a workspace to pirate software would I be a criminal also?

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing after that ill-advised, unethical and totally incorrect statement. Dear readers, Publisher Malmuth has made unfounded accusations against a fellow publisher Avery Cardoza, a publisher with far more credentials that Mr. Malmuth will ever have.


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I was thinking about this, and there's a very simple way to get at the truth. Why don't you go by your local Borders or Barnes & Noble and start comparing books. Look at the paper and this includes thickness and whiteness, the binding, the art work including card pictures and othe diagrams, the English, the type setting -- especially look at margin width and type size, the cover art, and anything else you can think of. Then I suggest you post your reactions here, I'm sure it will make for interesting reading.

MM

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It may vary from type of book to type of book. I say this since I have a backgammon book of theirs (quite decently published in terms of quality and so forth), but none of their poker works.

If the focus is purely on the material, and not content, I'll just say that my only gripe with 2+2 books is the binding, which I find consistently subpar. It is stiff, subject to huge cracks and creases, and I have seen them... not sure of the term... crack? Break? Ex: I'll leave it open, and it is subject to splitting open. Meaning the book will split in two separate parts, held together only by the glue on the binding. This is usually the first step towards a book falling apart.

As to the rest, well, I don't know about this big-name signing Cardoza has done, but 2+2's latest books are already considered poker classics and must-reads, such as the HOH series, SSHE, the newly released TNLHE, etc. It isn't about big names, it is about what they produce. Well, perhaps not to a publisher, as their focus would be on what sells, but to a player and student of the game, there can be no doubt.

Albert

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

Indeed.

It is clearly indicated in the law that downloading copyrighted music is illegal and people have actually been charged for that.

Stealing someone's cash off the table is also clearly stealing and there are probably several instances where someone was charged.


I doubt there's been a case where someone was charged with stealing the intellectual property because they read an entire book in a bookstore.
Maybe someone would be charged with loitering or something if they stayed there too long.

But specifically charged with 'stealing' seems a bit of a stretch to me.


Still, I have never read an entire book in a store before.
I have, on occasion, read more 2 more chapters and then decided I pretty much had the gist of what the book was saying and decided it wasn't worth reading any further.

But I do believe I may have walked away with a nugget or more of knowledge that I didn't have before reading 20 or more pages of a book that I later decided not to buy.


So, to that end, I do believe I have crossed the line that BenFranklin is drawing regarding 'stealing of intellectual property' but I'm not sure that is the ACTUAL line that is used as a matter of law.

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

Seeing this, just after reading this thread, is just too funny.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1031/amazonbh6.jpg

Re: A final note to 2 + 2 participants
 

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Dear Everyone,

Hey, I might be stubborn but I'm NOT dumb.

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You might not be dumb, but your logical reasoning skills are really, really awful. How do you have friends or people to talk to? Is this how you treat them when you're discussing things? Its so painful to read some of the things you're written while trying to prove whatever point it is you're trying to make. I think someone intelligent, which there are many intellingent people in this thread, could run you into the ground in a debate or discussion about almost anything.

Re: A final note to 2 + 2 participants
 

You know, judging from both Karlins' and Malmuth's posts and responses, I can honestly say that if I didn't know better I would positively drool to have either one of them sitting at my table. They both, at least to go by the posts in this thread, are so concerned about proving themselves right and the other wrong, that they are completely missing the point the other is making, or their intentions in making them. If they are this lax in observational skills at the tables, and more concerned with their own hand and intentions than those of their opponents, they would have to be considered pure shark food.

Not that I think that these posts are exactly representative. Malmuth is, of course, a winning player, and Karlins is certainly experienced in "gambling arts", although I'm not sure his poker skills are up to par. He certainly doesn't seem to follow the fundamental, systematic approach favored by most 2+2 disciples. That does not, contrary to the ballon juice too often spewed by said disciples, condemn one to losing. Other skill or talents may be so strong as to overcome defiency in the "2+2" areas. Most of us, however, need to utilize information and techniques "2+2" endorses to conistently win.

Most of the posts in this thread seem concerned with the relative value of "tell-reading". Most posts, whether due to a lack of aptitude in this skill, or maybe the influence of the internet game, seem to view it as little more than a novelty. While I tend to agree that it's importance is overrated by movies and lore, it remains a true but subtle skill. Consider it the spitball you throw maybe twice a game when you need that important third out. It may also be, as previously posted, unteachable. However, if the skill is present at all, it may be coachable or developable.

Could the art or science of reading tells help? Certainly it could be an advantage, and the value of such a skill in a live game could mean the difference between a positive or a negative night. In the long run it would seem to be less important. BUT...

To demphasize the skill of tell-reading, especially due to a lack of predisposition towards such a talent, is silly. Any edge can help. Malmuth's excellent article in "Poker Essays, Volume 2" regarding skill importance in specific games (pg. 54), is an excellent overview. It needs to be updated for pot limit games, tournaments, and internet variations. And the no limit hold 'em section should probably be revisited. Still, it should be required reading.

As should Navarro and Karlins' book, if only to stay ahead of the "Brunson Curve". With this much publicity and hype surrounding the book's release, it will be read by many, and you want to know what information they might be armed with. Plus, as was previously noted, the opportunity to perform a little "poker judo" and use their new found information against them, is just too enticing. You know some folks will just be itching to try out their new "toy"; let's profit from them, shall we?

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

[ QUOTE ]

Reading a book in a bookstore is theft of intellectual property. Theft is theft, whether you are stealing from a genius or a moron. Rationalize it however you want, you are still stealing. It is no different than downloading bootleg music or movies or software on the internet. It is no different than stealing cash from an obnoxious drunk at a casino. It's still his money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you for real? Have you ever heard of a library? If the policy of the store that you're in gives you comfy chairs and couches and allows you to hang around all day and read, you are not stealing. Those books, after all, belong to the bookstore. Now, taking that book over to the copy machine and copying it page by page, now there you might have a copyright issue.

Edit: Actually, even if they didn't allow you to read books at the bookstore, you still wouldn't be guilty of theft, only of violating store policy. They could kick you out, but that's about it. Intellectual property laws do not apply to such a situation.

Re: To Mason: Beyond ethical boundaries
 

[ QUOTE ]



Edit: Actually, even if they didn't allow you to read books at the bookstore, you still wouldn't be guilty of theft, only of violating store policy. They could kick you out, but that's about it. Intellectual property laws do not apply to such a situation.

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I'm not talking about law, I'm talking about ethics and morality. If you read a book in a bookstore, the author is not being fairly compensated for his work. If you read a book in a library, the author was compensated, and you are paying through your taxes that bought the book and support the library.

Granted, intellectual property law is a mess, and nearly impossible to enforce. That doesn't make it right to take an author's ideas without paying him. It is a matter of principle. He did the work, and he is offering it to the public for a price. If you make use of his work, you have an obligation to pay what he asks for using his work. If you don't want to pay what he is asking, don't use his work. If you can't afford it, you can't afford to play poker.