Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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well, the most expensive French food in Paris is going to cost just as much as in the US, or more. The tasting menu at Guy Savoy is about $300 without wine. Is this better than a tasting menu that costs $100? I bet it is, but I think the curve is nowhere near linear.

Meaning, I doubt Guy Savoy is 3 times as good, however one would define 3 times as good. I think a lot of what you are paying for is the name of the place, and the ambience, and the service, etc. Just the food, which I think Sucker was referring to, is probably not 'better enough' to justify the price.

I think this is true for all kinds of ultra-luxury items. You are often not going to get good value at the top of the food chain. (pun intended [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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KBZ,

I've continued to be unclear I see. I really shouldn't post between 9pm and noon local.

When you go ot Guy Savoy, you bet your ass you're paying for the ambience, the custom made plates, the name, etc. And if you're not happy paying for those things, along with the (nonlinearly) better food, you shouldn't be eating there. If, like JA Sucker appears to be, you're somehow disgusted by the ambience, obviously paying a markup for something that causes you disutility would be silly. As my girlfriend points out "not only your tastebuds are going to the restaurant, you're going for the experience."

When you go to Tru, some of your money is obviously going to pay for the fact that they have to pay for the museum quality art on the walls. When you go to Alinea you have to pay for the fact that they custom make silverware and plates for each dish. And when you go to anyplace in a stand alone mansion, you're helping pay their mortgage, which is clearly higher than rent in some mall.

Casually throwing the word "value" in at the end of your post does you a disservice. I think that as you pay more certainly you start getting decreasing marginal return on your investment, but I don't think I've found a restaurant yet where my marginal return has turned negative - in the high end category. I've been to many places that I would definitely call overpriced, but none of them have been in the category this thread is about. (These tend to be these weird "night club + food" or "small plates" places that are cropping up everywhere.)

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Pudge,

Nice report! That place sounds great, at least from your review and pictures. Next time I'm in Toronto (? LOL ?) we'll have to go.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

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Heh, different preferences I guess. I love being in crowded loud rooms.

If the tables are close together in quiet places it can be a bit of a pain though.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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I don't eat shellfish

I always enjoy calamari

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Hmm. . .

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

7,

squids don't have shells.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Yeah, I know. The wiki entry on shellfish states that they are sometimes considered shellfish, sometimes not. I'm just a little surprised because I just don't see a huge difference between shrimp and squid - there's a somewhat similar texture, the taste isn't THAT different, etc.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

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Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

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C - gotcha, ok that makes sense (speaking specifically about "high-tech" food).

The reason I mentioned Paris is because it is an amazing food city with a strong, deep regional tradition. And bistro fare is simple to execute on. Many bistros will execute on standard dishes as well as a higher-end restaurant, and at much more affordable prices. Haute cuisine is a different story, which speaks to your point. But many haute rest. will feature traditional bistro fare (their spin), and I doubt it's "worth" the price hike.

Let's take for example Guy Savoy - This is some random blog dude's pictures of the 11-course, 285 euro tasting menu

There are several dishes that leap out as highly replicable / and would be as good at another restaurant - "lobster, crusty and soft, raw and cooked, sauce made from its juices, snap peas, spring onion", the "'chop' of fat turbot with egg and spinach sprouts."

I guess my thinking was along the line of KBZ's - at the end of the day this is food and the "best ingredients", outside of a few luxe items aren't much more expensive... from a "are you getting your money's worth" - paying alot more for that doesn't make much sense.

Also, for the incredible price point hike, I don't believe it's worth it if you are expecting better cooking execution (is the sous chef at Guy Savoy really that much better than at a less expensive establishment?) and presentation (not difficult).

The 2 criteria where it might be worth it to pay more is 1) creativity of the dishes (driven by the executive chef), and of course 2) service.

Overall though I understand your point - the Guy Savoy 11-course tasting menu is insane, and you couldn't get the full breadth of that meal elsewhere, with that level of consistent creativity and execution of dishes, and perfect table service.

-Al

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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when you say mid-range, what sort of price range are you talking? I have long thought that nyc is a great city for midrange restaurants, entrees are in the 9-20 price range for many of my favorite places. in fact, I am often shocked at entree prices when I go back home to NC, because I am used to getting the same quality food in nyc at much lower prices.

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i guess i would say something like

low end - under 10 bucks for entrees
mid range - in the 10-25 vicinity
upper mid - 25-40ish
high end - 40+ for a typical entree

this is far from a perfect breakdown but if you figure in apps and desserts that puts the high-end places in roughly the 75+ range for food only.

when i used to live in the berkshires i ate in a lot of mid-range and upper-mid, bordering on high-end type places. i would say i got pretty good value in places like this compared to similarly priced places in manhattan.

i don't have a lot of experience eating out in the south at nice places, my family tends to think Romanelli's or Olive Garden is a 'nice' place so i don't have many occasions to compare with in NC.

i would say that the optimal price point in terms of value in the south is probably more towards low and mid range places, whereas where i was living before the best values (for whatever reason) seemed to be in the middle and upper-middle tier joints. does that make any sense? i'm not too sure about NYC yet but i'm guessing that where it excels is in some of the more unusual low and mid range type places - i.e. 'ethnic cuisines', places that depend on high volume and offer specialized menus, etc. your typical NYC diner isn't going to compete very well with a good southern diner because the overhead is so much higher but the food isn't going to be that different.

i'm also guessing that my NYC restaurant experience is fairly crippled by my inexperience with the outer bouroughs and some of the less horrible parts of manhattan.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

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Heh, different preferences I guess. I love being in crowded loud rooms.

If the tables are close together in quiet places it can be a bit of a pain though.

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If I'm going somewhere to have some beers, a filthy Monte Cristo and watch a football game, loud and crowded is fun. I'm talking about when you go out to 'dine.' I like to eat with space, quiet, and without being rushed.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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when i used to live in the berkshires i ate in a lot of mid-range and upper-mid, bordering on high-end type places. i would say i got pretty good value in places like this compared to similarly priced places in manhattan.

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Suprised to hear you say this. I've always thought that NYC had the best selection of $15-$25 entrees of any city or place I have visited. in fact I feel like great meals are easier to come by and often cheaper in NYC than Boston.