Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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The title of this thread is "why I do not think taxation = theft". So yes, you were not clear.

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lol, I realize that, and was wondering when you would finally point it out. I wrote the OP, and then didn't put much thought into what exactly I would title it, not intending to have to defend the semantics of it. But yes, I do not stand by the title.

I even said in the body of the OP that I personally agree that taxation is objectively theft. The title was basically a mistake.

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(in the sense that you are taking something that belongs to someone else, but not in the sense of it being an assumed immoral action)

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Yes, you are being unclear.

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Ya, I forgot that no one can rightfully maintain a set of morals that is not identical to yours.

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But communication is not perfect and words are just tools to express things. I don't think people who support taxes are bad people, so I don't think "theft" does justice to what their flaws actually are. If your goal is just to apply an accurate evaluation, and not include loaded subliminal value judgments, then I don't see why "forced redistribution of resources" wouldn't serve just fine.

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You assume the conclusion.

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Hrmmm? I assume nothing. I'm saying theft is sensational. You seem to think it's justifiable because it's an accurate description. I'm just wondering why you don't see "forced redistribution of resources" as more accurate still. Or in other words, why you'd ever need to use the word "theft," if offering an accurate analysis was truly your sole intention.

I think it's clear that you're trying to toss "And they're immoral [censored]" into your words without having to say it.

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Perhaps instead of just assuming things about people who support coercion, perhaps you should examine the actual evidence, their actions, and draw the conclusion based on that.

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Oh OK. Hmm let me try. I conclude that they're misguided and steal by accident. "Theft" seems to imply something worse than that. If I walk down my neighbors stairs and they break, am I breaking stairs? Ya. I broke the stairs. I guess I was tired and didn't see the sign not to walk down them. I don't think it would be too useful to refer to me as a "stair breaker" when really I'm just mildly careless. If you wanted to correct this tendency of mine, you should probably focus on the root of the problem (my carelessness) and not call my something ("stair breaker") that implies I'm an [censored] in addition to being careless, and makes me not want to listen to you. "Accidental theft" is more accurate and something I'd be fine with, other than maybe the goofy way it sounds.

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It almost adds an air of insecurity to your arguments.

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And a multipage thread about semantical nitpicks doesn't do this to yours?

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?

I made an OP expressing my thoughts on something. You (and others) disagree on some semantics, and (in addition to the page or two of quasi-hijack) a semantical discussion has ensued. Oh well? This is my fault?

Talk about seeing the speck in someone else's eye.

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"Don't call it what it is, it's not nice, and I don't like it when people call my friends and family names, so let's just make up some handwaving term so it doesn't sound so bad."

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Haha. You entertain me. Believe it or not, I don't cry at night because strangers on the internet categorize my family and friends as something bad.

The point is very simple. "Moral" and "Immoral" are relative terms. It's impossible for "most" people to be one or the other. "Theft" implies a moral judgment, in addition to whatever objective accuracy it may have (and I'm not denying it has that... it just *also* has an undeniable value judgment attached to it). It's patently ridiculous to claim (or even imply) that a vast majority of the population is a relative term.

It isn't that I "care" in the sense that my feelings are hurt, as much as it is that it seems so childish. And as someone who is sympathetic to your overall message, I think that message would be more effective if it was a bit more palatable.

Take it for what you want. I'm sure you'll have a reply; but I think everything has been said, on my end anyways.

We can settle this with a heads up 3 out of 5 poker game if you want. Loser can't post on 2+2 for a month. (P.S. That offer is serious, if you want to accept. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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But communication is not perfect and words are just tools to express things. I don't think people who support taxes are bad people, so I don't think "theft" does justice to what their flaws actually are.

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I agree that for the most part people arent evil and dont realise that they are doing immoral things. The whole point of the AC movement is to make people realise the true moral nature of taxation.

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Ya, I'm fine with the idea of trying to persuade other people. If pvn and nielsio would admit that it's a sensational word that does not encompass the true intentions of tax supporters, but that they think is worth using anyways because it helps people to "see the light" (and that that's worth it) then there would really be no disagreement on my part. The only disagreement would be whether or not such is the most effective way to get them there.

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

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No, not immoral to you. Immoral universally. Morality != opinion. Opinion = opinion. Morality = universal claims.

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

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No, not immoral to you. Immoral universally. Morality != opinion. Opinion = opinion. Morality = universal claims.

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What?? Morals aren't objective.

Cody

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

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No, not immoral to you. Immoral universally. Morality != opinion. Opinion = opinion. Morality = universal claims.

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What?? Morals aren't objective.

Cody

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Do you believe aggressive murder or aggressive rape is immoral?

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

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No, not immoral to you. Immoral universally. Morality != opinion. Opinion = opinion. Morality = universal claims.

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What?? Morals aren't objective.

Cody

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Do you believe aggressive murder or aggressive rape is immoral?

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How does that even address the issue?

"I think morals do not extend beyond individual interpretation."

"Oh ya? Well what do YOU think about rape??? Huh???"

"Ugh, I agree it's bad?"

If someone disagrees, he's entitled to that moral belief. If he chooses to act upon it, he will have to deal with the logistical consequences of the fact that most people see it my way.

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

What does 'I think it is bad' mean?

What do people mean when they say 'x is bad' to other people?

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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can we just merge this forum with anti-state.com already

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Come on, this was obviously an AC thread, just from the thread title. Its not like this was hijacked.

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the whole forum is AC threads

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Apparently it's what people want to talk about.

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those people being wasps, of course.

Re: Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft
 

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Exactly. Slavery is something I would agree should be seen as objectively wrong. But when society at large feels differently, you have to fault people for going along with it to a much smaller degree.


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But it doesn't make it "not slavery".

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It's "forced redistribution of labor".