ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[William]

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mikechops,

I think it is very surprising that you and many others realize that ZJ is willing to bend the rules to maximize his EV in a given situation, yet believe that when his actions lead to situations that let him really capitalize on this cheating, he doesn't take advantage of it at all. ZJ's "I open up more SNGs when I find myself at the same table and then I can't even remember what cards my multiple horses have!!!!" is more pathetic than JJ's Grandma story.

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El D,

I'd say J.J.'s Grandma story is slightly more pathetic.

But not by much.

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More pathetic maybe, but also more credible.
Saying "I would try not to take advantage od having 2 of my accounts at the same table" has to run for the worst lie in history and thinking anybody will believe it is mocking our intelligence.

[TomBrooks]

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There is a bit too much of a mob mentality here.

[/ QUOTE ] The guy has stolen several hundred thousand dollars from this mob. Lori

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Maybe some real Organized Crime figures lost money in these MTTs. In that case, they may be going after ZJ.

[Blarg]

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The issue really isn't dumping. I'm confident that most people who entered tournies on multiple accounts don't do it with the hope or intention of meeting up and dumping chips. They just want multiple shots at the title.

It's the act of entering more than 1 account in a tourney that's cheating, and any chip dumping or altered-play that ensues is just incidental.

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I agree with your general point that entering with more than 1 account is cheating whether any chip dumping happens or not, but whether or not the person intends to chip dump, it would be a rare person who didn't if they found themselves in a situation where it was both very easy and desirable (e.g., both accounts at same table get heads up with slightly below average stacks about 3 hours into the tournament).

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Exactly. I don't expect we'd likely see anyone rising to sainthood in a tournament. Being asked to believe in the possibility is good for a chuckle, though.

[can_dollars]

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think how f-ed we would be if the general public knew we could easily cheat at cards online

HOLY ****! THANK YOU PARTY POKER!

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With all the attention this and the JJ thread received, and roughly a quarter mill confiscated in 2 weeks from 2 people 20 and under, whos to say that this wont make 20/20 or dateline or something.

I think it will give fish another reason not to play, if they think they will be cheated. Of course this could be given a positive spin, if you say party has taken care of this isolated incidents. I think its much more likely that this will have a negative affect though.

[TomBrooks]

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Wait until your good friend comes to you with something unethical, but less than murder. See if you immediately race off to the nearest authority to turn him in.

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Would you turn someone in who you know committed murder?

[DVaut1]

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Pretty much the only difference is that I knew I was taking it up the as$s, because of people doing this, or figured I was, and you didn't.

Not sure what private forum you allude to (I participate in none) but I am friends with a lot of people in the poker world, am trusted by a wide range of them, and don't consider it my place to police their ethics, or their practices.

Every bit of my gut told me this was wrong--and I never did it myself for this reason, or maybe it's because I, personally, am too lazy to confront the hassle of withdrawing money through Party Poker on a fake account--but I was convinced by people who are generally smarter and more adept at poker thinking than I am, that this was acceptable, not really cheating and just part of the new ehtical poker landscape that online ushered in. I'm easily influenced in that way--not to participate in the mayhem, but to accept it as reality.

In any case, I'm not going to be the one to inform on my friends, regardless of what they did or how wrong I may have determined it to be. Everyone has his own ethical boundaries to create and confront, their own morals to establish, and I would feel more disingenuous informing on people who trust me than the cheaters themselves are.

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Yeah, I understand, but I have to imagine that your friends who cheat are not only giving it to you up the ass in the short term (by unfairly using multi-accounts), but they do much to intimidate fishes like me who now question the integrity of the games they WERE gleefully pouring their money into (and which you, as one of the very skilled players, was reaping the benefits from).

Does ZJ and JJ being outed for multi-accounting mean doom and gloom for online poker? Probably not. But I suspect that continued cheating like this (if it continues) could eventually be a threat to your profession. It sounds like the allegiance you’re granting to your unethical peers by remaining silent could eventually cost much – and I can’t imagine it’s worth the price. I have absolutely no serious empirical evidence, and am relying very much on anecdotal evidence, but I think fear (that is, fear of being cheated) keeps many would-be players aware from the tables, especially online, where paranoia and innuendo already runs rampant.

But I have friends and family, and like you said, breaking their trust by outing them as cheaters is exceedingly difficult, and I wouldn't seriously expect many to do it. But I think it's probably the wrong decision in the end, borne out of our own fears of being black-listed among those whose opinions we value. So I hope this doesn't come off as grandstanding, because I assume I would behave exactly as you have if I were in a similar situation.

[Synergistic Explosions]

These guys caught cheating did it so badly it makes me wonder if they even cared if they were caught.

It's the cheaters that take precautions that should be worrying you. I don't think theres any way the sites can catch them at the moment. Unless they make a mental error and sign in on the wrong computer/IP address with the wrong account. I've heard of that happening, and Party did freeze the guys account immediately, although he did get all his money back later with an explanation (lie).

These cheaters are smart and I really don't trust the sites to catch even a small percentage of them in the end. Theres just no trace of them being connected together. Even if someone turned them in by name with all their accounts, I'm not so sure a site could prove it true.

[shaniac]

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shaniac,

I only play a couple tourneys a year so it really doesn't affect me. But your refusal to out known cheaters is somewhat of a cheat by you since you know when to be leary of such a multiple presence on a table but other 2+2'ers here don't. So you benefit by that knowlege and refuse the benefit of it to them, as well as the benefit of stopping it.

Plus most importantly, your inaction is what enables those cheaters to continue cheating and damage the reputation of online poker for integrity that we all depend upon to garner a stream of newer players.

Shame on you for your cowardice.

And note that I am not condemning the practice of multiple accounts for the purpose of masking one's play from dataminers when such a person with same never attempts to login on more than one account at a time and play.

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Call it cowardice if you like, but I never have and never will go out of my way to burn someone. In case I didn't make it clear (and maybe this is cowardice, or spinelessness), I let people convince me that the practice of multiplayering was actually okay. It was so widespread, I assumed everyone was on the inside, and by virtue of my non-participation I was on the outside and would one day need to catch up. As I said like 12 pages ago in this thread, I am happy that multi-accounting has been established as a clear wrong ("cheating") and that my ethical gut-reaction to it has been justified. I'm sorry if you think I'm a coward or a lowlife, but I don't answer to you or your moral authority.

All I can do is what I believe what curtains was trying to do--convince people that it was clearly wrong and let them argue otherwise. But I'm not sure what world you live in where someone reveals a secret to you in confidence, you tell them you disagree with it, then turn around and drop a dime.

[mikechops]

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mikechops,

I think it is very surprising that you and many others realize that ZJ is willing to bend the rules to maximize his EV in a given situation, yet believe that when his actions lead to situations that let him really capitalize on this cheating, he doesn't take advantage of it at all. ZJ's "I open up more SNGs when I find myself at the same table and then I can't even remember what cards my multiple horses have!!!!" is more pathetic than JJ's Grandma story.

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Yeah I'm not saying what he did was right and I don't buy the whole "I handicapped myself on purpose" line either. I do think it is a 2nd degree offense in that gaining an unfair advantage was not his primary intention. If he had done the same thing in ring games or an STT, all my sympathy goes out the window.

Wasn't what he did "breaking the rules" rather than being "unethical". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[blufish]

i'm sure he will sleep ok tonight, knowing that you think so poorly of him because he's not a sellout rat. it is not his job to patrol the world of internet poker. it is the site's responsibility and party took the first step. hopefully the rest will follow.