Official Barry Bonds Countdown Thread

[kyleb]

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You've made a lot of assertions. You assert that steroids help hitters more than they hurt them. I don't agree. Care you support that assertion?

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You're kidding, right?

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He might not be. Personally, I think steroids (as used in baseball) are more effective for pitchers than hitters, though it should be obvious that both groups benefit.

The types of steroids commonly used in baseball are Winstrol (Stanozolol) and Anavar (Oxandrolone) - occasionally Deca-Durabolin as well. Both Winstrol and Anavar are not typical "bulking" steroids, rather, they help retain muscle mass gains throughout a cutting cycle (with some evidence that shows Anavar helps fat loss). As you could imagine, this is extremely helpful for pitchers who are basically repeating an unnatural motion by the human body and continually tearing muscles in their arms and shoulders. It will help get them through the season by shortening recovery time and maintaining muscle mass.

Hitters that use steroids are more likely to use bulking agents like Deca-Durabolin or Dianobol plus testosterone propionate. This would help them hit the ball farther and possibly increase batting average due to CNS stimulation and stabilization of their back/core muscles.

I think a shortened recovery time beats added muscle mass, but I could be wrong. Just my opinion.

[Needle77]

By the way, new record.

[RedBean]

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Personally, I think steroids (as used in baseball) are more effective for pitchers than hitters.

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You may be right.

In the year after steroid testing was implemented, it was predicted by many in the media to expect a "big dropoff" in offense.

Then the stats came in.

HR production overall went UP 4.5% and runs scored were UP 3%.

Offense went UP.

Naturally, pitching stats got worse.

But the most telling stat in addition to all the other obvious pitching numbers getting worse is this:

The number of complete games pitched were down 28%.

Pitchers average length of outing decreased almost an entire inning....across the board....in a single year.

In the entire history of baseball, in either league, there had always been at least 100 CG's in each league.

And then suddenly the year after testing was implemented, their were only 71 in the NL, and 79 in the AL.

A 28% decrease in a single year! And it wasn't just an aberration!

The AL had seen 100 or more CG's from 1901-2003. Since testing has been implemented, they have NOT had a season since with more than 85, and last year saw only 66.

To those who say "testing didn't have an effect".....it certainly did...just not the one they expected or wanted!!!

Not too coinidentally, it was after testing was implemented and many pitchers had to go natural that Bonds posted the highest single-season OPS in baseball history.

Good thing for him that MLB cleaned up the game while he still had a few years left in the tank, and the rampant cheating by pitchers in baseball could no longer try and deny him his rightful place as the HOME RUN KING!!!

VIVA LA BONDS! ALL HAIL THE KING!

[ThaSaltCracka]

wow...interesting post RedBean.

[SirArthur]

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wow...interesting post RedBean.

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I agree, I hadn't seen Complete Game Stats examined in such a fashion since steriod testing was implemented.

[BigSoonerFan]

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Personally, I think steroids (as used in baseball) are more effective for pitchers than hitters.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right.

In the year after steroid testing was implemented, it was predicted by many in the media to expect a "big dropoff" in offense.

Then the stats came in.

HR production overall went UP 4.5% and runs scored were UP 3%.

Offense went UP.

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This is hilarious. 4.5% and 3%? Are you kidding me? Both runs and HRs went DOWN the year afte that, lower than the year before testing. Do you understand variance?


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Naturally, pitching stats got worse.

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Oh, naturally....but they did't. At least not much. The ERA since testing began is slightly better than the decade before testing.

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But the most telling stat in addition to all the other obvious pitching numbers getting worse is this:

The number of complete games pitched were down 28%.

Pitchers average length of outing decreased almost an entire inning....across the board....in a single year.

In the entire history of baseball, in either league, there had always been at least 100 CG's in each league.

And then suddenly the year after testing was implemented, their were only 71 in the NL, and 79 in the AL.

A 28% decrease in a single year! And it wasn't just an aberration!

The AL had seen 100 or more CG's from 1901-2003. Since testing has been implemented, they have NOT had a season since with more than 85, and last year saw only 66.

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Complete games are down. Strikeouts are up. Shutouts are up. ERA is the same, but better than the decade before.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

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Not too coinidentally, it was after testing was implemented and many pitchers had to go natural that Bonds posted the highest single-season OPS in baseball history.

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That happens when you get walked 230 times.

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Good thing for him that MLB cleaned up the game while he still had a few years left in the tank, and the rampant cheating by pitchers in baseball could no longer try and deny him his rightful place as the HOME RUN KING!!!

VIVA LA BONDS! ALL HAIL THE KING!

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He's a cheater, and an [censored]. Tell him to go away.

[Borgland]

Bonds said he might retire after '08. What's the over/under on his final HR total? 800? Link to story

[vhawk01]

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You've made a lot of assertions. You assert that steroids help hitters more than they hurt them. I don't agree. Care you support that assertion?

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You're kidding, right?

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I'm not kidding at all. I don't actually know either way, but it doesn't seem obvious to me that they would help hitters more. Certainly, I disagree with the strenght of your assertion and its unsupported nature. My overall point was, just because something might be 'intuitive' to someone who spent 5 seconds thinking about it doesn't make it correct. It is intuitive that weight rooms are a huge advantage that Bonds has over Ruth, until you think about it for more than 5 seconds.

Or is "are you kidding" your way of getting out of the obligation of supporting your assertion?

[BigSoonerFan]

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You've made a lot of assertions. You assert that steroids help hitters more than they hurt them. I don't agree. Care you support that assertion?

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You're kidding, right?

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I'm not kidding at all. I don't actually know either way, but it doesn't seem obvious to me that they would help hitters more. Certainly, I disagree with the strenght of your assertion and its unsupported nature. My overall point was, just because something might be 'intuitive' to someone who spent 5 seconds thinking about it doesn't make it correct. It is intuitive that weight rooms are a huge advantage that Bonds has over Ruth, until you think about it for more than 5 seconds.

Or is "are you kidding" your way of getting out of the obligation of supporting your assertion?

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No, I say the same thing when someone tells me the Earth is flat, evolution is incorrect or the Big Bang didn't happen. Let me know when you figure it out, then you'll be caught up with everyone else who knows anything about baseball.

[RedBean]

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This is hilarious. 4.5% and 3%? Are you kidding me? Both runs and HRs went DOWN the year afte that, lower than the year before testing. Do you understand variance?


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In the 3 years since testing was implemented, HR's are up 1% over the 3 years prior.

Scoring is up, and ERA is up.

Certainly not the massive drop expected by many when testing was implemented.

Of course, in the 3 years since testing, pitcher's complete games are down 22% over the prior 3 years, and the average outing has been reduced almost an entire inning.

Where teams just 5 years ago carried 10 man staff, 13 is now the norm for some, the need to carry 2-3 extra pitchers to make up for the sudden inability of pitchers to recover.

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There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

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This is what people say when drug testing has a drastic effect on pitching statistics, instead of the desired effect on offensive statistics.