Player Discussion

[Hattifnatt]

With pretty deep stacks I definitely prefer JJ before AQs because it's easier to get in trouble with AQs and the jacks can flop a set and win a nice bunch of money.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason:
Well, no one understood what I was talking about. No wonder the games are good.

Strasser:
I'll take JJ over any ace any day

Roman:
JJ is a lot more valuable than AQ in a cash game

punter:
AQ vs JJ in not even close imo

cero_z:
In NL, the Jacks are definitely better

flawless_victory:
JJ is better

El Diablo:
I'll take the JJ.

HoldemKillah:
JJ.

KKF:
Id still rather have JJ

Yeti:
Id still rather have JJ

Mason, that full ring game of you, strasser, roman, punter, cero, flawless, El D, HEK, KKF, and Yeti sure does sound like a good game. Let me know next time you're sitting in such a live one.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's a significant difference between disagreeing with a statement and not understanding it.

[cero_z]

Hi Everyone,

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty excited about the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

So am I, and in no way do I think the 2+2 authors (or Mason individually) offer bad advice in general. Everyone gets things wrong from time to time, and I felt like Mason got this one wrong, so I made my case. This thread has turned into a Mason-bashing session--why?

Also, I think many of you misunderstood the original question. We aren't comparing JJ vs AQs heads up against each other , necessarily; in that spot I think it's clear that JJ is better with or without more chips. We're talking about a situation where we get to pick AQs or JJ and are facing a large 3-bet; in both cases, we're pretty much [censored]. But with JJ, we can occasionally [censored] our opponent badly, and we can fold one pair more confidently on certain flops. With AQs, we'll always be in a tough spot unless we flop trip queens, a straight, or a flush. The draws we might flop won't do us much good, probably, because our opponent is unlikely to let up on the pressure in a pot that's been 3-bet and called pre-flop. For that same reason, it won't be very hard to win a lot post-flop when we flop 3 Jacks (which won't happen often).

[kagame]

this thread turned into a bashing session because im the closest person here to actually sortof agreeing with what mason is TRYING to say, and i would still much rather have the JJ in almost every scenario

:-/

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has turned into a Mason-bashing session--why?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think most posters here were very careful not to say anything harsh. Bashing sessions are usually a lot more wild here...

[SuperJez]

I dont think its bashing at all, however I am still very curious as to seeing another post from Mason explaining a bit more clearly what he means and the reasoning behind it - I think its fair to say the majority of posters need convincing by him.

Jez

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

err... JJ is better regardless right?

how could you possibly want the worse hand?

AQ can be pushed off any A or Q flop just as easily as JJ can be pushed off rags....

[Matt Flynn]

Of course you want the jacks. Jacks are far more valuable than AQs. Any pair beats any other preflop holding by a mile within a very broad range of stack sizes and playing styles. Here if your assumption holds that the out-of-position player will play jacks better postflop b/c he will be forced to fold for a small postflop bet less, jacks are waayyy better than AQs.

No limit is annoying to discuss because it is so heuristic, and this question suffers from that problem. In general with random opponents, jacks are significantly better. However, if I or any other relatively aggressive player is the player with position, JJ could end up costing the out-of-position player more than AQs. The reason is I am likely to resteal from you if you give off any weakness, and my only question before putting you to the test on most boards will be "did he flop a set?"

Matt

[El Diablo]

Matt,

Note that in Mason's followup post he postulates the following:

AQs is out of position having called a reraise. Jacks are in position having put in the re-raise preflop.

Given that scenario, he would rather be the AQs post-flop.

I am looking forward to Mason's explanation.

[Maulik]

Ace high isn't a very good hand.

end of discussion.