Restating My "Religion Does Good" Post More Explicitly

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, great edifices that have been constructed in obeisance to the almighty sky god. But at one time, astrological training was very important in the training of astronomers, mathematicians, and even doctors. Since the scientific revolution, astrology has yielded its authority much more so than has religion.

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That's because astrology has been all but disproved. Religion has not. I do agree with the point that people are more likely (probably much more likely) to hold irrational beliefs about religion, but this is a sloppy way of supporting that point.

If anything, the fact that basically all intelligent people believed in astrology when their upbringing supported that belief (despite having no logical basis) is a testament to the impact of indoctrination and upbringing.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
That's because astrology has been all but disproved. Religion has not. I do agree with the point that people are more likely (probably much more likely) to hold irrational beliefs about religion, but this is a sloppy way of supporting that point.


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The whole "FAITH" thing means even if it were possible to rpove a particular God didn't exist... the Faithful would still believe and consider it a test the same way God put fossils in the ground to test our faith...

Religious seem only interested in science when it corresponds with their beliefs.

[tame_deuces]

I don't really know how interested they can be in science if they actually believe there are creationist scientists.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
Though I suspect I was, alas, one of the three people David referred to in an earlier post in this thead, I'm going to chime in anyway. It has to be more than just upbringing and surroundings. Astrology claims that the positions of the stars in the sky have an effect on our lives. Religion claims to be authoritative about our deaths, the afterlife. And dying, I would think, must be the scariest thing people think about. Thus they are more likely to hold irrational thoughts about religion for psychological reasons.

Yes, great edifices that have been constructed in obeisance to the almighty sky god. But at one time, astrological training was very important in the training of astronomers, mathematicians, and even doctors. Since the scientific revolution, astrology has yielded its authority much more so than has religion.

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Great point, I'm just not sure which direction it goes.

Yes, up until modern man, astrology was widely believed in. It was actually science if I'm not mistaken (or one of the first forms of it). And yes, it has yielded it's authority, but why?

I think it's because certain things were *proved* falst about it. It was shown that the earth was not the center of the universe for example. It was proven that the constellations were only a smidgeon of what we once thought there was. But there is no way to disprove of gods. We've done away with most of the unnecessary ones however. We no longer need a sun god, or a sea, or a volcano god. But we might be a long way off from proving purpose and origin of life and the universe in general. We may never have answers for these things. And unlike astrology, god will live on.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">If anything, the fact that basically all intelligent people believed in astrology when their upbringing supported that belief (despite having no logical basis) is a testament to the impact of indoctrination and upbringing.
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Or, I could've just said this! -lol. I'm soooo not eloquent.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Though I suspect I was, alas, one of the three people David referred to in an earlier post in this thead, I'm going to chime in anyway. It has to be more than just upbringing and surroundings. Astrology claims that the positions of the stars in the sky have an effect on our lives. Religion claims to be authoritative about our deaths, the afterlife. And dying, I would think, must be the scariest thing people think about. Thus they are more likely to hold irrational thoughts about religion for psychological reasons.

Yes, great edifices that have been constructed in obeisance to the almighty sky god. But at one time, astrological training was very important in the training of astronomers, mathematicians, and even doctors. Since the scientific revolution, astrology has yielded its authority much more so than has religion.

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If you are trying to imply that this means astrology was easily disputed because it didn't offer the psychological benefits David is talking about, I think you are looking at only one small piece of the puzzle.

Astrology was never a way of life. No one worshiped the horoscope god. There was never a stigma of being evil if you didn't believe in astrology. Etc. Etc. Etc. See my earlier post I guess if this isn't thorough enough.

[Alex-db]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, great edifices that have been constructed in obeisance to the almighty sky god. But at one time, astrological training was very important in the training of astronomers, mathematicians, and even doctors. Since the scientific revolution, astrology has yielded its authority much more so than has religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because astrology has been all but disproved. Religion has not. I do agree with the point that people are more likely (probably much more likely) to hold irrational beliefs about religion, but this is a sloppy way of supporting that point.

If anything, the fact that basically all intelligent people believed in astrology when their upbringing supported that belief (despite having no logical basis) is a testament to the impact of indoctrination and upbringing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an interesting point, you mention it as though it is obvious to everyone, but I'm not sure it is even true.

Religion has essentially been disproved to the same extent as astrololgy. Prayer doesn't work, seances are parlour tricks, 'miracles' never happen, its origins tell a tale of its human creation. Astrology just needs more people explaining that the stars deliberately hide their effects whenever they are measured, and that you can't disprove that there is any effect if they are free to change the claimed effect as experimental results arrise.

[madnak]

Right, but astrology has no way to explain these things away. Astrology makes concrete predictions - religion doesn't. It doesn't harm religion at its core if we disprove prayer - plenty of religious people have considered prayer more an indulgence than anything. No major religion has made the claim that prayer necessarily has concrete physical effects.

However, astrology for all its nuance does make general predictions. In isolated cases, these predictions may not be true, but it's critical to the field of astrology that the predictions will tend to be true. Thus, there must be some correlation between birth month and personality (for example). That there is no such correlation is damning for astrology.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, but astrology has no way to explain these things away. Astrology makes concrete predictions - religion doesn't. It doesn't harm religion at its core if we disprove prayer - plenty of religious people have considered prayer more an indulgence than anything. No major religion has made the claim that prayer necessarily has concrete physical effects.

However, astrology for all its nuance does make general predictions. In isolated cases, these predictions may not be true, but it's critical to the field of astrology that the predictions will tend to be true. Thus, there must be some correlation between birth month and personality (for example). That there is no such correlation is damning for astrology.

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Madnak, I think you are right! That is the trick of religion: it make claims that are unprovable therefore it may be right and can never be wrong (ie the after death, the soul, etc.)! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Very astute!


There absolutely zero correlation that non-believers go to hell, it is pure speculation! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[dragonystic]

this is denying the antecedent

and even if it wasnt, i dont agree with your premises. if people stopped wasting their time with religion, we'd be much better off, and people would find a way to be happier.

lastly, utilitarianism is a poor way to decide if something is good or not.