More guns the way to go? Some thoughs.

[LBK]

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everybody is talking about the black market. if we ban guns, they would get them anyway, so there's no point. that's like saying we should allow killing, cause it happens anyway.

first guns must be banned. of course you would have to do a lot about the black market too. in norway, i'm sure we have a black market where you can buy guns. but the point is, IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET ONE! a maniac can't just get a gun without an effort. it's impossible. he would have to have contacts and look carefully. this is excactly what i wrote in the original post. of course people would still get guns, and people would still get killed. but that's not the point! the point is to make it as safe as possible.

50 killed is better than 100 killed. 500 killed is better than 5000. i never said that gun banning would stop ALL murders, or make crime go away. But it would lower the gun-related deaths, naturally. And the criminals? I never said there would be less criminals, as someone here accused me of. But a criminal without a gun is better than a criminal with a gun. now i know what you're gonna say "but a criminal can get a gun anyways"! YES, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM! We're not talking single scenarios here. That's what's so frustrating about arguing with you guys. You go, "well, you don't think there would be guns? huh? no criminals with guns? huh? drugs are forbidden, people use them anyways! omg you are wrong"

im sick of this. alcohol is legal in norway. of course people would still drink if it's illegal, but LESS WOULD DO IT!

if guns were forbidden, less criminals would get guns. and that would make a safer society.

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I agree with you in some capacity. We def need to make it harder for people to get guns. Many deaths are caused by spur of the moment anger that results in someone pulling a trigger. If you made it harder to get a gun, most of those involved would not be inclined to make the effort to get a gun. Would there still be people with guns? Yes. But the % would be much lower.

[LBK]

Personal attack deleted

[pvn]

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Gun lovers infuriate me. You are the people who lose children becuase you couldn't bear to be without a glock or a 45 and your children blow their brains out becuase you needed to be packing. What a joke. You people are dangerous and scary.

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Think of the children! Never mind that more kids die in swimming pools. You bourgeous people just HAD to have your fancy swimming pool! You people are dangerous and scary.

OK, I don't have any kids. Now what's your line?

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That is a retarded comparison. Swimming pools aren't designed to kill things. It's sad you try and justify accidental deaths by guns to swimming pool drownings. Yes, we all know swimming pools are killing youth at an accelerated rate... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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What difference does it make what something was "designed" to do? People use things for stuff other than what they were designed for all the time. That's basically how innovation occurs.

Note also that I'm not "justifying" accidental deaths.

Again, I don't have any kids. Now what's your line?

[NickMPK]

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Do you see a lot of homemade guns in industrialized countries with gun control?

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No. This isn't evidence that people are incapable of making them. DUCY?

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I'm not claiming that people are incapable of making them. But I think it is difficult enough, and the penalties for doing so are harsh enough, that the incentive structure is not there except in very very rare occassions.

Why would there be more homemade guns in the US if handguns were illegal than there are in other industrialized countries with gun control?

[rubbrband]

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Gun lovers infuriate me. You are the people who lose children becuase you couldn't bear to be without a glock or a 45 and your children blow their brains out becuase you needed to be packing. What a joke. You people are dangerous and scary.

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Have you ever seen any of the documentaries about child death by fire arms? The cause of the children's death was due to lack of knowledge and stupid parents who leave guns out were children can get them.

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Actually, the cause of death was from a child pulling the trigger on their parents gun. Plain and simple. If the gun hadn't been there, the child would have lived. I wonder if any of those parents still support guns?

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Some of them still support guns but all of them support locking up your weapons(knives included) and keeping them out of the hands of small children.

[LBK]

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Gun lovers infuriate me. You are the people who lose children becuase you couldn't bear to be without a glock or a 45 and your children blow their brains out becuase you needed to be packing. What a joke. You people are dangerous and scary.

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Have you ever seen any of the documentaries about child death by fire arms? The cause of the children's death was due to lack of knowledge and stupid parents who leave guns out were children can get them.

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Actually, the cause of death was from a child pulling the trigger on their parents gun. Plain and simple. If the gun hadn't been there, the child would have lived. I wonder if any of those parents still support guns?

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Some of them still support guns but all of them support locking up your weapons(knives included) and keeping them out of the hands of small children.

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And apparently that's not cutting, now is it?

[rubbrband]

Brittish gun making site

[pvn]

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everybody is talking about the black market. if we ban guns, they would get them anyway, so there's no point. that's like saying we should allow killing, cause it happens anyway.

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No, it's not the same. Having a gun doesn't necessarily hurt anyone. Killing by definition does.

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first guns must be banned. of course you would have to do a lot about the black market too. in norway, i'm sure we have a black market where you can buy guns. but the point is, IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET ONE! a maniac can't just get a gun without an effort. it's impossible.

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Impossible???

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he would have to have contacts and look carefully. this is excactly what i wrote in the original post. of course people would still get guns, and people would still get killed. but that's not the point! the point is to make it as safe as possible.

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We can make things a lot safer by putting everyone in individual padded cells. Then everyone would be much safer. There would be no worries about falling off of ladders. No accidental paper cuts. No skinned-up knees. Very, very safe. Surely you must be for this, since you want everyone to be as safe as possible, right? I'm sure we can arrange for you to live in such a safe environment. Let me know when you're ready.

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50 killed is better than 100 killed. 500 killed is better than 5000. i never said that gun banning would stop ALL murders, or make crime go away. But it would lower the gun-related deaths, naturally. And the criminals? I never said there would be less criminals, as someone here accused me of. But a criminal without a gun is better than a criminal with a gun. now i know what you're gonna say "but a criminal can get a gun anyways"! YES, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM! We're not talking single scenarios here. That's what's so frustrating about arguing with you guys. You go, "well, you don't think there would be guns? huh? no criminals with guns? huh? drugs are forbidden, people use them anyways! omg you are wrong"

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You're thinking you can change one variable and have everything else stay the same. But it doesn't work that way.

Which is better:

1) A criminal with a gun who you can stop

1) A criminal without a gun who you cannot stop

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im sick of this. alcohol is legal in norway. of course people would still drink if it's illegal, but LESS WOULD DO IT!

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FWIW, alcohol prohibition in the US had basically a negligible effect on consumption rates. In fact, some studies indicate that consumption may have actually *increased* during that period. Crime certainly did.

And does anyone really think there's a bunch of people out there who are thinking "I'd really love me some crack, but, nah, Mr. Senator says it's bad, so I'll pass"??

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if guns were forbidden, less criminals would get guns. and that would make a safer society.

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Do you actually have any evidence for either of those claims, or are you just going to repeat your emotional claims over and over again?

[pvn]

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But the vast majority of guns used in crimes in the US were legally manufactured. If we made guns illegal, the guns used in these crimes would never exist.

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And some other gun would. This is like saying that well, gee, Coke makes most of the soda in the US, so if Coke were shut down by the government, nobody would have any soda. The world isn't static. Someone else will step up.

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No, its like saying that if the government outlawed all soda, then nobody would have any soda...if soda were much more dangerous, harder to manufacture, and easier to detect.

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Like pot, or crack? Those are outlawed. Obviously nobody has any!

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You are claiming that guns would be just as easily obtained among criminals if they were illegal. Then why don't all criminals in Europe have guns? Do you think criminals in Europe simply don't like guns as much?

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News flash: not all criminals in the US have guns.

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You are clearly trying to evade my point. I would claim that a far smaller percentage of criminals in industrialized countries where handgun ownership is illegal own guns than do criminals in America. Are you actually going to dispute this? If you don't dispute this, then why is this?

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What difference does it make? Tie it to a point you're trying to make.

Is it just the fact that people have guns that bothers you? If we had the exact same crime figures, same number of robberies, same number of murders, etc, but with fewer guns, would you be happier?

[bkholdem]

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I would claim that a far smaller percentage of criminals in industrialized countries where handgun ownership is illegal own guns than do criminals in America. Are you actually going to dispute this? If you don't dispute this, then why is this?

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Prohibition in the USA (drugs mostly) along with very heavy handed 'enforcement'.