*Official* HSP 8/14

[Rottersod]

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I don't know if you are joking, but against anyone else (with similar stack sizes) I think Daniel makes this laydown pretty easily.

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No. Daniel isn't able to laydown big hands in this game (the deeb hand in season 1 comes to mind).

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didn't he lay down the nut flush to todd brunsons bluff?

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Yes and many of us didn't agree with that considering the relatively small amount of money it would have been for him to call and the price he was getting. I can't fault him for not laying down his full house here. He knew he was probably going to lose when he made the call to Gus's check raise but the money was just too much at that point. These guys play on a much higher level than we do and there are other things going on that have to be taken into account like their rep among the other players. Daniel just can't lay that hand down for the small-ish (for him, not us) amount left to call. Sure, to us calling $167,000 would be unbelievable but the pot was so big there it was going to be a call no matter what.

[Rottersod]

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To say it's an "easy fold" is either some ridiculously tight-weak poker, or ego-driven results-based thinking.

Daniel was trying to represent an overpair - everything he did in the hand was consistent with that. If he did think that he (Daniel) successfully planted the idea in Hansen's mind, then he would expect Hansen to be very aggressive with a wide range of hands. If he has nothing, he might be able to scare off Daniel's overpair on the kind of board that hits the sort of hands Gus will play. If he has a strong, but second best hand like 59, then he'll try to get value against an overpair.

Either way, the way Daniel acted throughout the hand was designed to encourage action - and so when he actually gets action, he's not going to take it as a conclusive sign that he's beat. Both of them know Gus' image, and Daniel could've made Gus think that Daniel thought he was calling off a bluff raise and bet on the turn with a medium strength hand like an overpair. And if Daniel thinks that's what Gus is thinking, then Daniel's actions are a natural conclusion to that, based on what Daniel thinks Gus is thinking.

You say Gus couldn't have played that way without a hand that beat Daniel, but that's nonsense. Gus certainly doesn't come from that weak-tight camp, so you can't base Daniel's analysis of his action based on that. Gus could've had a range of hands there that Daniel beat, and Daniel is getting like 2:1 on it. Still, it's not like Daniel is pot-committed at that point, so a bluff is still a viable option.


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This is the best analysis of the hand. This was poker at its absolute best, and the river check by Gus was brilliant.

The river check was the key to the payoff. DN thought that Gus put DN on an overpair with the river C/R, which was part of DN's plan through the whole hand. DN said as much in his blog. DN verbalizes the possible hands that beat him before he calls, but I think this was just to let everyone know that he was considering all the possibilities before he called with his boat, thinking that he had trapped Gus into thinking that he (DN) sold Gus that his (DN's) hand was simply an overpair.

This is 4th or 5th level thinking, and maybe more, and Gus went one level deeper in the analysis. Like others have said, I would really like to hear how Gus analyzed this hand as it rolled out. Gus's giant brain was one step ahead of DN at the end, and the river check was superior poker.

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This line of thinking supports the vibe I got from DN when he alerted Doyle and Eli to the big pot he wa about to call. He did it in a confident/cocky type way...not in a "oh man such a tough call"
when he was running through the hands that beat him he didn't seem terribly concerned just that if it was one of those he was being cold decked big time and there was nothing he could do about it. I really got the vibe from DN that he thought his "plan" had worked...and he was about to get seriously payed off

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That's funny because I got exactly the opposite vibe from him in that spot. He looked like he knew he was going to get beat and wanted to have Doyle watch to get some sympathy.

[Triumph36]

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To say it's an "easy fold" is either some ridiculously tight-weak poker, or ego-driven results-based thinking.

Daniel was trying to represent an overpair - everything he did in the hand was consistent with that. If he did think that he (Daniel) successfully planted the idea in Hansen's mind, then he would expect Hansen to be very aggressive with a wide range of hands. If he has nothing, he might be able to scare off Daniel's overpair on the kind of board that hits the sort of hands Gus will play. If he has a strong, but second best hand like 59, then he'll try to get value against an overpair.

Either way, the way Daniel acted throughout the hand was designed to encourage action - and so when he actually gets action, he's not going to take it as a conclusive sign that he's beat. Both of them know Gus' image, and Daniel could've made Gus think that Daniel thought he was calling off a bluff raise and bet on the turn with a medium strength hand like an overpair. And if Daniel thinks that's what Gus is thinking, then Daniel's actions are a natural conclusion to that, based on what Daniel thinks Gus is thinking.

You say Gus couldn't have played that way without a hand that beat Daniel, but that's nonsense. Gus certainly doesn't come from that weak-tight camp, so you can't base Daniel's analysis of his action based on that. Gus could've had a range of hands there that Daniel beat, and Daniel is getting like 2:1 on it. Still, it's not like Daniel is pot-committed at that point, so a bluff is still a viable option.


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This is the best analysis of the hand. This was poker at its absolute best, and the river check by Gus was brilliant.

The river check was the key to the payoff. DN thought that Gus put DN on an overpair with the river C/R, which was part of DN's plan through the whole hand. DN said as much in his blog. DN verbalizes the possible hands that beat him before he calls, but I think this was just to let everyone know that he was considering all the possibilities before he called with his boat, thinking that he had trapped Gus into thinking that he (DN) sold Gus that his (DN's) hand was simply an overpair.

This is 4th or 5th level thinking, and maybe more, and Gus went one level deeper in the analysis. Like others have said, I would really like to hear how Gus analyzed this hand as it rolled out. Gus's giant brain was one step ahead of DN at the end, and the river check was superior poker.

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This line of thinking supports the vibe I got from DN when he alerted Doyle and Eli to the big pot he wa about to call. He did it in a confident/cocky type way...not in a "oh man such a tough call"
when he was running through the hands that beat him he didn't seem terribly concerned just that if it was one of those he was being cold decked big time and there was nothing he could do about it. I really got the vibe from DN that he thought his "plan" had worked...and he was about to get seriously payed off

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That's funny because I got exactly the opposite vibe from him in that spot. He looked like he knew he was going to get beat and wanted to have Doyle watch to get some sympathy.

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This was my read as well. You look at his body language and actions after the check-raise - he knows he is beat. Gus Hansen is just not doing this with 95 or 65 or whatever everyone else thinks he might do. Still, I feel it's one of those folds that certainly could be made, but that most players, even the best, cannot make.

[I.Rowboat]

Here's a non DN/GH-related question: why was Barry playing short stacked? Seemed like a good game, inasmuch as he had position on Zeidman, who was weak/tight as hell, and he's obviously a long-term winner against this lineup. Barry gave the impression this episode that he was down to his case money for the show and wasn't going ot rebuy if he went broke. I'm curious why. Any ideas?

[Rottersod]

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Here's a non DN/GH-related question: why was Barry playing short stacked? Seemed like a good game, inasmuch as he had position on Zeidman, who was weak/tight as hell, and he's obviously a long-term winner against this lineup. Barry gave the impression this episode that he was down to his case money for the show and wasn't going ot rebuy if he went broke. I'm curious why. Any ideas?

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Money management. The good players have a money plan before they sit down and they stick with it. The bad players don't and they keep buying in (or allow themselves to get talked into staying).

[legend42]

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Here's a non DN/GH-related question: why was Barry playing short stacked?

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This has been discussed here (not sure if it's in this thread or another), but basically Barry doesn't like to reload until he busts. It keeps him from being targeted (like he said on the show, it wouldn't be very smart for him to add $300K to the table after getting his aces cracked for the 2nd time- it might look like tilt, so he wouldn't be able to play his aggro style).

Plus, he likes to play short sometimes- it's much easier, it allows him to settle himself after a tough beat, and he's good at it.

[I.Rowboat]

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Here's a non DN/GH-related question: why was Barry playing short stacked?

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This has been discussed here (not sure if it's in this thread or another), but basically Barry doesn't like to reload until he busts. It keeps him from being targeted (like he said on the show, it wouldn't be very smart for him to add $300K to the table after getting his aces cracked for the 2nd time- it might look like tilt, so he wouldn't be able to play his aggro style).

Plus, he likes to play short sometimes- it's much easier, it allows him to settle himself after a tough beat, and he's good at it.

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OK, that makes sense. I didn't see the earlier thread on this, so thanks for the explanation.

[bilbo-san]

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Here's a non DN/GH-related question: why was Barry playing short stacked? Seemed like a good game, inasmuch as he had position on Zeidman, who was weak/tight as hell, and he's obviously a long-term winner against this lineup. Barry gave the impression this episode that he was down to his case money for the show and wasn't going ot rebuy if he went broke. I'm curious why. Any ideas?

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Money management. The good players have a money plan before they sit down and they stick with it. The bad players don't and they keep buying in (or allow themselves to get talked into staying).

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Your presumption that money management and reloading are in any way related is very, very wrong.

If you believe the game is good, and you play well deep-stacked, then rebuying/adding money is fine unless you are, in fact, not one of the better players, and/or DON'T play well deep-stacked. But then your problem isn't money-management, it's self-perception.

Money management has to do with your bankroll, not some weird stop-loss strategy.

[Rottersod]

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Here's a non DN/GH-related question: why was Barry playing short stacked? Seemed like a good game, inasmuch as he had position on Zeidman, who was weak/tight as hell, and he's obviously a long-term winner against this lineup. Barry gave the impression this episode that he was down to his case money for the show and wasn't going ot rebuy if he went broke. I'm curious why. Any ideas?

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Money management. The good players have a money plan before they sit down and they stick with it. The bad players don't and they keep buying in (or allow themselves to get talked into staying).

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Your presumption that money management and reloading are in any way related is very, very wrong.

If you believe the game is good, and you play well deep-stacked, then rebuying/adding money is fine unless you are, in fact, not one of the better players, and/or DON'T play well deep-stacked. But then your problem isn't money-management, it's self-perception.

Money management has to do with your bankroll, not some weird stop-loss strategy.

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Since Barry stated on last episode that if he lost he was tapped then my comment stands. he obviously had a plan for this session and stuck to it. as for your entire argument, you've practically covered yourself with every possible escape clause "if, and, then, unless, and/or" so you don't really have a clue as to what you are talking about.

[BigSoonerFan]

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That's funny because I got exactly the opposite vibe from him in that spot. He looked like he knew he was going to get beat and wanted to have Doyle watch to get some sympathy.

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This was my read as well. You look at his body language and actions after the check-raise - he knows he is beat. Gus Hansen is just not doing this with 95 or 65 or whatever everyone else thinks he might do. Still, I feel it's one of those folds that certainly could be made, but that most players, even the best, cannot make.

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I certainly think that he thought he was probably beat, but I doubt that he was looking for some sympathy. I think that he was just looking for a little respect (quiet) while he made a big decision.