Comment on Greenstein Rating

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
bodibble, anything that we point out will be deemed trivial and obvious by you. It will also be different things for different people.

Everything is obvious in hindsight and just knowing what you should do is not enough to ensure success. The more I move up, the more I realize I see that my success is heavily determined by factors other than my knowledge of how to play my hand and my opponent.

Maybe your experience is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really unfair. At least TRY to post something that you thought was profound. Bobdibble isn't a troll, and neither am I -- we seriously want to know what we're supposedly missing here. It's not as though Barry is some chook from off the street -- he's obviously "Tier 1" -- but on the other hand the vast majority of what he says seems obvious, and only helpful to the extent that it's a straightforward reminder of the simple stuff (tilt = bad, rudeness = bad, scaring fish = bad). Is this really the "Take it to the next level" material, or is there something else?

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bodibble, anything that we point out will be deemed trivial and obvious by you. It will also be different things for different people.

Everything is obvious in hindsight and just knowing what you should do is not enough to ensure success. The more I move up, the more I realize I see that my success is heavily determined by factors other than my knowledge of how to play my hand and my opponent.

Maybe your experience is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really unfair. At least TRY to post something that you thought was profound. Bobdibble isn't a troll, and neither am I -- we seriously want to know what we're supposedly missing here. It's not as though Barry is some chook from off the street -- he's obviously "Tier 1" -- but on the other hand the vast majority of what he says seems obvious, and only helpful to the extent that it's a straightforward reminder of the simple stuff (tilt = bad, rudeness = bad, scaring fish = bad). Is this really the "Take it to the next level" material, or is there something else?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have the book in front of me and I would probably need to read it again, but there were certain parts of the book that made me think about poker in ways that I normally don't. I don't think this has made any transformation in my game yet, but maybe it will. Maybe after reading it again I can give you a better answer.

I respect you and bodibble, I just have a different opinion (though I do have my own criticisms of the book). Unlike bodibble, I am not judging Ace on The River based on whether the topics he discusses are covered in more depth elsewhere. I don't think that is relevant.

Why must the material be "profound" to be important?

Why is it hard to accept that things that sound obvious are very important? These obvious things are not going to make much difference if you don't play poker well or if your opponents are extremely bad, but if you do play well and most of your opponents play well, then they will make a huge difference in your results.

There are many obvious things that everyone knows they should do, but many people still do not do them.

I'm sure my response won't satisfy you. I assure you, I am not being purposefully vague.

[BarronVangorToth]

I own and have read 100+ poker books so I think I have read my share of what is out there, and I can say with 100% certainty that there is material in Barry's book that made me think of poker with a unique perspective. No, there isn't a chapter labeled: Sup3r S3cr3t Pok3r T3ch ... but, when read as a whole, it will add dimension to your game.

I believe it has for mine, and there are few non-2+2 books that I can say that about (this and King Yao's Weighing the Odds spring to mind).

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I can say with 100% certainty that there is material in Barry's book that made me think of poker with a unique perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this material is . . . . ? Or are you saying that there's no specific passage/page/chapter/line/idea that was helpful, but that there's some the-whole-is-greater-than-the-parts gestalt that magically transported you to the Next Level?

This is really not a tough question, guys.

[Shandrax]

The last comment inspired me for a quite ridiculous comparison that contains a lot of truth though:

Imagine Chris Ferguson would write a book on his "Tournament Practice" and it contained nothing but stories about his career as a ballroom dancer. Sure, Chris is a great ballroom dancer and it may very well be the very best book on the subject on the market. Still it is obvious that many people would be disappointed, because everyone wants him to write about Game Theory in Poker.

One question remains of course: Did Barry write this book to please the crowd, or did he write it because that was the story he wanted to share with us?

[olliejen]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps 'tales from the big-game' or 'barry on the tourney scene' (with hand-examples and more stories from major tournaments plus more details on your work with various charities and how you got involved with it and why it's so important to you and hoping that others will join you, etc).
Just a couple of ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree w/ this 100%. There've got to be a lot of great stories & crazy things happening around poker, not directly about poker, waiting to be told. so much more so around the biggest game in town...

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
There've got to be a lot of great stories & crazy things happening around poker

[/ QUOTE ]

I learned all about cigarette smugling between Idaho and Washinton, money laundering, how you shouldn't transport bags of cash through Texas, and the korean mafia in my last B&M session.

[royaltrux]

I am no where as experienced as you so take this for what it is. You totally missed the whole point of what Barry was talking about. He was talking about a live situation where you have a lot more information due to physical mannerisms to the strength of your opponent.

Live and online are two different beasts. If you are want to play Jen go to FullTilt. I've seen her there a bunch of times. They just started hand histories so you can "kill" her as you say and post it for us all to admire.

Sorry for the sarcasm.

[olliejen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can say with 100% certainty that there is material in Barry's book that made me think of poker with a unique perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this material is . . . . ? Or are you saying that there's no specific passage/page/chapter/line/idea that was helpful, but that there's some the-whole-is-greater-than-the-parts gestalt that magically transported you to the Next Level?

This is really not a tough question, guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, from an outside-looking-in perspective, i think this book could've been named "Poker Professionalism"; about the considerations of a poker professional;

1. Game selection based solely on profitability vs ego or boredom.

2. Working only when you have full advantage of your skill edge (i.e. not tired, emotional, distracted, etc. I was actually quite surprised by how much barryg1 discounts his own edge when he's not 100%)

3. Being sentient of the distractions and risks in your "workplace" (e.g. super-hot chicks, other casino games, sports-betting...)

4. How poker seeps into and directly affects other aspects of your life.

i think a lot of this stuff might seem self-evident to someone who thinks about poker as much as people here do, but i'd bet that if many of us were in the situation with the fat bankroll, we'd definitely have a much more lax view of playing in casinos.

In terms of assessing myself, there was a section where there was a short quiz regarding how well your psychological makeup lends itself to life as a poker pro. I think you need to answer all the questions "No" and I answered nearly every one "yes" Some questions I was quite surprised, such as one about only making gambles getting the best of it.

In terms of material content altering my play, there've definitely been a few things I've tried or experimented with since;
1. vs extremely loose play, loosen your own play and re-raise liberally instead of tightening up. I always tighten up and I'm still don't understand why loosening up is the better adjustment.

2. there was a Stud full-house example about manipulating multi-way play based on what you've put other people's hands on that has me planning differently.

3. i'm single-tabling now and turned off GT+ to try and come up with relevant reads & understanding opponents, rather than trying to 4-table against floating stats-boxes.

[olliejen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There've got to be a lot of great stories & crazy things happening around poker

[/ QUOTE ]

I learned all about cigarette smugling between Idaho and Washinton, money laundering, how you shouldn't transport bags of cash through Texas, and the korean mafia in my last B&M session.

[/ QUOTE ]

see?! now that is a story i'd sit down and listen to or read for sure. Or about the time time you & Lou Pinella wrestled in the lockerroom... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]