Official Barry Bonds Countdown Thread

[DrewDevil]

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RedBean, I don't know how you don't get tired of dealing with Drew's insolence.

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One can only assume that my recovery time has been somehow enhanced, LDO.

Especially considering that it is occuring this late in my career.

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This is good [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[RedBean]

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Your continued dismissal/refusal to address this evidence is a dismissal of that evidence IMO. Please address the evidence in the book.

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You're original assertion was that Bonds admitted using steroids to the grand jury.

My contention is that this assertion is false.

Do we still disagree, or have you revised your position?

[DrewDevil]

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Your continued dismissal/refusal to address this evidence is a dismissal of that evidence IMO. Please address the evidence in the book.

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You're original assertion was that Bonds admitted using steroids to the grand jury.

My contention is that this assertion is false.

Do we still disagree, or have you revised your position?

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Bonds admitted using this stuff that he claims he thought was flaxseed oil. It was, in fact, steroids. Ergo, Bonds admitted using steroids. That was my assertion and I have not revised it.

I understand that you like to parse everything semantically, Bill Clinton style, but that does not render my assertion "false."

Now, will you address the evidence in the Game of Shadows book?

[RedBean]

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Why do you say "likely to his detriment?"


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Because I think it possible a few brothers could have hit more than 714 homeruns during the 1900-1947 era if they had been allowed to play, and pre-emptively relegated Ruth to second potato throughout his career, possibly even setting the bar out of reach before Ruth had ever picked up a bat.

Not saying likely, but possible. We'll never know, because it wasn't allowed.

But, just imagine if Ruth had went through his career always behind the arbitrarily random and imaginary 837 homeruns from Blacky McBlackman who began play a few years prior to Ruth, then you'd have to agree things would have been just a wee bit different.

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Blacks are allowed to play today, and they are not dominating a list of the best pitchers in baseball.


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Good thing we're not talking about pitchers then. We're discussing HR hitters.

Let's take a list of the all-time HR lists since 1947, seperated by race:

White guys:
1. McGwire 583
2. Killebrew 573
3. Schmidt 548
4. Mantle 536
5. Matthews 512
6. Thome 490
7. Yaz 452
8. Bagwell 449
9. Kingman 442
10. Ripken 431

Black guys:
1. Bonds 757
2. Aaron 755
3. Mays 660
4. Griffey 589
5. Robinson 586
6. Jackson 563
7. McCovey 521
8. Banks 512
9. Thomas 505
10. Murray 504

If not for integration in 1947, Harmon Killebrew would have been #2 overall, and the HR king of the post-war era, until Big Mac would have passed him earlier this decade.

573 would've been a household number, known to everyone as second only to 714.

"The Killer" would be a widely recognized moniker for the past 25 years, rather than "The Hammer" or "Say Hey Kid".

But, since they let those black guys start picking up bats in 1947, it didn't quite turn out that way.

As a result, I'd postulate that it was somewhat to Harmon's detriment, despite his final total not being reduced at all.

Now do you see how it has absolutely nothing to do with the color of the guy on the mound?

And, don't get me wrong like you usually do...I'm not discounting Ruth's career by any stretch of the imagination... because we just don't know what what have happened had blacks been allowed to play....and I'm not even going to make an obvious argument that the past 60 years of integration has trended towards a dominance of blacks in career HR leaders....but don't tell me that blacks not being allowed to play prior to 1947 "doesn't matter" and would have had little or no detrimental effect to Ruth and specifically the career HR list, because the last 60 years of integration has shown otherwise.

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Who are these imagined black pitchers who would have dominated Ruth had they been allowed to play?


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They weren't allowed to play, so we don't know what would have been.

I've barely finished work on my time machine, and here you are already asking me to begin work on an "alternate universe machine" instead?

One breakthorugh at a time, young padawan.

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Is there any real evidence that black players would have reduced Ruth's career numbers at all,


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Not reduced, but instead outdistanced in advance of Ruth's even starting to play, or surpassed in a shorter time after him establishing his marks.

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..other than some notion that black athletes just dominate every facet of every sport they are allowed to play?

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I never asserted that, it's a patently ridiculous strawman. Why must you consistently resort to this tactic? That's like the fourth time in this thread you just pull patently ridiculous arguments out of thin air, atttribute them to me, and then proceed to argue with yourself over them.

[RedBean]

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Bonds admitted using this stuff that he claims he thought was flaxseed oil.

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So far, so good.

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It was, in fact, steroids.


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Fact? This is an actually an allegation by the prosecution based on circumstantial evidence. It has never been proven, and has not been conceded as fact by Bond's defense.

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Ergo, Bonds admitted using steroids.

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Um, no. You had it right the first time....he admitted using a substance he beleived to be flaxseed oil.

The contention on whether or not it was flaxseed oil is a matter for the jury to decide based on evidence presented at trial, ergo -> not a fact.

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I understand that you like to parse everything semantically, Bill Clinton style, but that does not render my assertion "false."


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It's one thing to believe the Bonds used steroids.

It's quite another to assert that he admitted using steroids to the grand jury.

Please tell me you understand this critical difference, from a legal standpoint, and that is not merely a minor semantical difference....but the difference between a voluntary admission of guilt, and the determination of guilt by a third-party based on circumstantial evidence.

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Now, will you address the evidence in the Game of Shadows book?

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Sure...let's address this excerpt:

"Bonds insisted the trainer had only given him flaxseed oil and arthritis balm. Bonds denied he had ever knowingly used performance-enhancing drugs."

How does this excerpt from the authors square up with your assertion that Bonds admitted using steroids?

[RedBean]

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I passed the bar exam in Texas.


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I read some law books in prison.

[secretprankster]

Roids, Drew?

[kyleb]

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It was, in fact, steroids.

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Nope.

You're really bad at this "fact" stuff, you know.

[By-Tor]

recap of drews posts in this thread...




blah blah blah

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

IT'S A FACT!!!

IT'S A FACT!!!

IT'S A FACT!!!

RE-READ THE THREAD!!!

RE-READ THE THREAD!!!

RE-READ THE THREAD!!!
RE-READ THE THREAD!!!
RE-READ THE THREAD!!!
RE-READ THE THREAD!!!
RE-READ THE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Game Of Shadows!!

Game Of Shadows!!

Game Of Shadows!!

[DrewDevil]

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Why do you say "likely to his detriment?"


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Because I think it possible a few brothers could have hit more than 714 homeruns during the 1900-1947 era if they had been allowed to play, and pre-emptively relegated Ruth to second potato throughout his career, possibly even setting the bar out of reach before Ruth had ever picked up a bat.

Not saying likely, but possible. We'll never know, because it wasn't allowed.

But, just imagine if Ruth had went through his career always behind the arbitrarily random and imaginary 837 homeruns from Blacky McBlackman who began play a few years prior to Ruth, then you'd have to agree things would have been just a wee bit different.

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Blacks are allowed to play today, and they are not dominating a list of the best pitchers in baseball.


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Good thing we're not talking about pitchers then. We're discussing HR hitters.

Let's take a list of the all-time HR lists since 1947, seperated by race:

White guys:
1. McGwire 583
2. Killebrew 573
3. Schmidt 548
4. Mantle 536
5. Matthews 512
6. Thome 490
7. Yaz 452
8. Bagwell 449
9. Kingman 442
10. Ripken 431

Black guys:
1. Bonds 757
2. Aaron 755
3. Mays 660
4. Griffey 589
5. Robinson 586
6. Jackson 563
7. McCovey 521
8. Banks 512
9. Thomas 505
10. Murray 504

If not for integration in 1947, Harmon Killebrew would have been #2 overall, and the HR king of the post-war era, until Big Mac would have passed him earlier this decade.

573 would've been a household number, known to everyone as second only to 714.

"The Killer" would be a widely recognized moniker for the past 25 years, rather than "The Hammer" or "Say Hey Kid".

But, since they let those black guys start picking up bats in 1947, it didn't quite turn out that way.

As a result, I'd postulate that it was somewhat to Harmon's detriment, despite his final total not being reduced at all.

Now do you see how it has absolutely nothing to do with the color of the guy on the mound?

And, don't get me wrong like you usually do...I'm not discounting Ruth's career by any stretch of the imagination... because we just don't know what what have happened had blacks been allowed to play....and I'm not even going to make an obvious argument that the past 60 years of integration has trended towards a dominance of blacks in career HR leaders....but don't tell me that blacks not being allowed to play prior to 1947 "doesn't matter" and would have had little or no detrimental effect to Ruth and specifically the career HR list, because the last 60 years of integration has shown otherwise.

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Who are these imagined black pitchers who would have dominated Ruth had they been allowed to play?


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They weren't allowed to play, so we don't know what would have been.

I've barely finished work on my time machine, and here you are already asking me to begin work on an "alternate universe machine" instead?

One breakthorugh at a time, young padawan.

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Is there any real evidence that black players would have reduced Ruth's career numbers at all,


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Not reduced, but instead outdistanced in advance of Ruth's even starting to play, or surpassed in a shorter time after him establishing his marks.

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..other than some notion that black athletes just dominate every facet of every sport they are allowed to play?

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I never asserted that, it's a patently ridiculous strawman. Why must you consistently resort to this tactic? That's like the fourth time in this thread you just pull patently ridiculous arguments out of thin air, atttribute them to me, and then proceed to argue with yourself over them.

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Here you are engaging in the EXACT SAME kind of speculation you previously chided me for when I said Bonds could still be indicted.

It is possible that some black guy would have hit more home runs than Ruth, just like it is possible that you might someday bang Cindy Crawford. But is there any evidence that this would have happened?

Now, if you're simply arguing that Ruth wouldn't have been the only 700+ home run hitter of that generation, then sure, maybe. It's possible.

But even if there were several brothers hitting a lot of home runs, I don't see how that would have reduced Ruth's numbers, and I've always though that was the argument--that if blacks had been in MLB back when Ruth played, that he wouldn't have hit 714. If that is the argument, then the hypothetical quality of black pitchers back then is the important question.