Omnipotence Doesn't Imply Seeing The Future. - Page 8

soon2bepro · #71 01-12-2006, 10:46 AM

hashi: God can do those things because he has the power to do so. How is this not logical? Whether it's true or not is another issue, but if it were, it'd be no less logical than the sun shining, or the rain falling.

For God's actions to be illogical one would have to believe that He's an illogical being (or rather that He goes beyond logic) (and even then, His actions and it's consecuences may remain logical). Since we're talking about nothing more than the belief in a fairytale here, I don't see how anything someone says about it can't be proven/disproven by altering the belief by which you go in the first place.

The once and future king · #72 01-12-2006, 01:20 PM

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The once and future king: No, it does not mean that He exists at all times

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Im sorry but I and every major theologian and every philosopher that has considered this disagrees with you.

To be frank it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that God cant exist only in temporal time.

Why? Because that would make him temporal finite and limited.

soon2bepro · #73 01-12-2006, 02:07 PM

Uh... Eh...

First of all, I don't see why He can't be finite/limited, but anyway, suppose He can't...
How does Him existing within the/a timeline make him finite?

Philo · #74 01-12-2006, 02:53 PM

I have not read the rest of the thread.

The traditional problem in the phil of religion is that a contradiction is supposed to arise if god is thought to possess the following attributes:

1. Omnipotence
2. Omniscience
3. Omnibenevolence

If god is omnipotent, then he has the power/ability to prevent evil. If god is omniscient, then he knows how to prevent evil. If god is omnibenevolent, then he is all-loving and all-good, and therefore would not allow any evil.

The contradiction comes with the observation that there is, in fact, evil in the world (both man-made and natural).

hashi92 · #75 01-12-2006, 04:02 PM

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hashi: God can do those things because he has the power to do so. How is this not logical? Whether it's true or not is another issue, but if it were, it'd be no less logical than the sun shining, or the rain falling.

For God's actions to be illogical one would have to believe that He's an illogical being (or rather that He goes beyond logic) (and even then, His actions and it's consecuences may remain logical). Since we're talking about nothing more than the belief in a fairytale here, I don't see how anything someone says about it can't be proven/disproven by altering the belief by which you go in the first place.

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its not logical because you cant explain how God can logically do it. yes you can use logic to discuss an idea.
but in the case of God once you discuss it you will find that his acts are not logical. God did it. how. he just did it. is that a logical argument.

soon2bepro · #76 01-12-2006, 06:01 PM

hashi: The logical reasoning is: "God did this, therefore it happened." Not being able to explain it simply means that the argument is not scientifical. That it's not a rational argument. But it doesn't (as any other reasoning/argument) exceed logic in any way.

hashi92 · #77 01-12-2006, 09:25 PM

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hashi: The logical reasoning is: "God did this, therefore it happened." Not being able to explain it simply means that the argument is not scientifical. That it's not a rational argument. But it doesn't (as any other reasoning/argument) exceed logic in any way.

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Im wrong. youre right. thanks for the lesson. sorry to waste your time.

guesswest · #78 01-13-2006, 01:50 AM

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Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.

Also the inability to see the future perfectly does NOT mean that you can't guarantee your own promses.

If the above two statements don't have a logical flaw that I missed, I hope religious people realize that it is good for them even if their first inclination is otherwise. See why?

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If you imagine being able to infinately calculate the possible outcomes of every event and then respond to those outcomes, while existing in time, then you would see the future even though it does not exist.

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The OP was very careful to specify that this god would be, or at least could choose to be, active in the future. The reason for that is what you say, if god set the ball rolling then left it, he'd necessarily know the future just by knowledge of all the variables involved. But the wild card is god himself, he can later choose to do things, on a whim, for whatever reason, that would influence those variables - thus despite being omnipotent can't predict the future. Assuming god is active in the future, he can only have predictive power (in this model) if his actions are pre-determined, and his actions being pre-determined would refute his being omnipotent.

soon2bepro · #79 01-13-2006, 09:07 AM

guesswest: It really doesn't matter whether He is or isn't active in the future. Being able to do anything doesn't mean you know how things work. Or that you know everything (which you need if you're to know the future).

Just as you imply He doesn't know what His own actions will be, as long as He's not omniscient, He may not know what other's actions will be. He may not know what the outcome of all kinds of factors interacting will be.

Just because He (could have) created the universe doesn't mean He knows exactly how it works.

Of course, if you throw Omniscience in the mix (and if Omniscience means knowledge of all, including Himself), He must know the future, so long as everything in the Universe (even Himself) works in a deterministic (logical) manner.

Then again, if you consider seeing the future as something doable, omnipotence means you have the power to "do" it. (as I said earlier)

PS: One hopes in time, humans will realize that absolute terms without a context are very often self-contradictory

wmonfor · #80 01-13-2006, 11:19 AM

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Also the inability to see the future perfectly does NOT mean that you can't guarantee your own promses.

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The flaw in this logic is that God is restricted by time. God is past, present, and future, so He does not need to "see" the future. He exists in all three, and is therefore unbound by time, and also logical arguments.