The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB

[gregorio]

3bet JJ PF not manditory. I was just watching a Stox video where he says he coldcalls jacks in position or out of position because it plays good post flop and you want to play medium sized pots with it and you don't want the fold equity, you want some value. He basically says what Matrix says.

[matrix]

so I am playing these days on a new windows box and I don't have any of my old db's to hand - but during last nights session this hand came up and I played it like this.

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

MP: $53.02
CO: $69.28
BTN: $77.97
Hero (SB): $43.50
BB: $24.43
UTG: $101.20

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $1.50</font>, CO calls $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, 2 folds, CO calls $5.50, BTN folds

Flop: ($17.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $9</font>, CO folds

Results: $17.50 Pot

so far CO here is the table sucker and I have been tangling with him a little this is the first hand I've 3bet at this table. (I've been sitting for ~3 orbits or so and yes I tried to reload preflop but was too late) The rest of the players at the table are playing pretty nitty and leaching CO dry slowly but surely.

I 3bet my JJ here from the small blind cos I am very confident CO will call at least with a hand I am ahead of and I wants value. I'm also confident that everyone else has a OK but not great hand and won't want to play a big pot - my raise here is a kind of squeeze and I am planning to CB flop if CO calls and take it away from him usually or get mad value cos he's the kind of player that will call if he hits any kind of pair.

Obv here I hit a golden flop but note my flop CB size.(if I'd had 100bb I'd have bet $10 here) Also my preflop 3bet is a little smaller than pot - but it's large enough to get the job done (fold everyone except CO) and it's small enough so that I can bet/fold a nasty flop if he pushes OTT of my raise (I don't think even this guy is going to bluff push many flops where I'm ahead) and if I like the flop and he calls/raises my flop bet we are playing for stacks.

I think if I flat call here preflop I am playing for set value alone - as this hand turned out I probably would have got paid off if I flat call preflop as one of the 4 players is likely to have an Ace, but most often I miss my set so I decided that 3betting preflop here was better.

I amjust trying to illustrate here that altho I am in the "flatcalling JJ in the SB is standard camp" that I don't always flat preflop - when I have a reason to I deviate from my standard line. You should too.

We can't ever ALWAYS take a certain line in a situation. I think that in some of my posts in this thread what I am trying to say is that the leaks the SPEW that some people have is where they autopilot play their standard lines without thinking. They always CB 2/3 - 3/4 pot on flops without thinking about what will happen later on in the hand - or later on in other hands vs the same players.

Perhaps my play in this hand isn't optimal - but I thought out a plan of attack - I tried to think about what I wanted to manipulate the villains into doing, and then I made what I thought was the best play. I am happy with my play here.

I am a little rusty at this poker stuff having barely played for 3 months (life beats) - and this thread has really made me think so I am enjoying the discussion.

[munkey]

1st I agree JJ OOP in 3bet pot is one hardest situations -AQ too IMHO -but I flat AQ out SB more often as it dominates LP ranges alot.

I 3bet preflop almost always - as corsakh says its protection vs overcards - I flat it out SB if villan will float me more often -as 1 overcard flops can become expensive if vilian will call with QJo and stack off on qxx flop -basically if I have low FE (preflop or on flop) and want to get to showdown with a small pot.

I agree with carniehobo about fcbet size - it though this was standard -se AJ's foundation post.

I also don't agree with 1/2 potting flop in 3bet pot -vs fish they will often float any piece or draw - I bet 2/3 pot and then can PSB shove turn or bet decent amt then put remainder in on river.

[munkey]

In that hand Matrix JJJ in 3bet pot - I have a noobish question I don't actually know the correct answer too.

What's the best 3bet size out SB/BB given x limpers?
Is there a standard like 4xbb+ 1limper?

FWIW I tend to do what you did but make it tad more.

I'm just asking because JJ multiway OOP sucks so either we think a decent 3bet will get it HU and a cbet has a decent chance of sucess but if some of those callers call our 3bet then isn't it better to flat out the SB then and play a small pot?

[bozzer]

grunch...

my typical line would be to cbet pretty big and c/f [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turns or rivers.

against a meh villain who doesn't call pf with dodgy aces or float much i'll c/f most turns. if he's likely to call weak pf or f and fold to a two barrel i might shove a turn (esp if i pick up a gutshot), but mostly not.

if he's likely to do other weird stuff then some interesting c/r lines come into play, but i think this is like a 85% cbet-c/f spot for me. leak?

edit: ps, i don't think a c-c is much cop at all at any point on this board.

[NL Newbie]

If $9 is bad, but $7 is good, what reasoning is there to say $4 is bad? What about $1?

I want your views, i have already got my own opinion of the bet size or the check line to take in this spot of course.

Just stimulating some more discussion before i say my line in this hand

[Supwithbates]

Here is something that I've found to be true at 50nL:

Opponents like to float 3bet pots. At 50nl, everyone starts 3betting a semiwide range, but has no clue how to play in a 3bet pot that they don't connect with. They think they should cbet 100% like they do in regular pots without realizing how exploitable that is, because they almost always fold to a raise. That makes floating preflop with hands like SC EXTREMELY profitable against PFR with wide 3b ranges. All you have to do is shove over their cbet with a FD, or mid pair, or whatever, and they fold often enough+you have enough equity to make it so ridiculously profitable.

I pretty much always check this spot. Not to c/r, but to c/c or c/f.

Think of it this way: What does a bet accomplish on this flop against a decent thinkign TAG? Do we think he will fold an ace or a bigger pair? Do we think he will smoothcall with a worse pair? He almost always folds 99 and worse here, and if he is calling preflop with a hand like T9s then he is either folding or (more likely) shoving this flop, against which we have to fold.

The ONLY reason to bet this flop is if we bet with the intention of calling his shove. Betting is risking more money in a growing pot that opponent has already decided he has an interest in taking down.

A line I find to be profitable is to simply ALWAYS check 3bet flops when an ace hits vs. aggressive thinking opponents (barring certain wet flop situations). A c/c after a 3b PF with AK never looks like an ace, so we induce opponent to bluff. I usually cbet overpairs, but with the intention of calling if he shoves with the understanding that an aggressive opponent has a wide range preflop and therefore necessarily has a wide range postflop.

Also, when opponents see us checking AK on ace-high flops in 3b pots, they become more wary of trying to steal from us when we have KK-JJ, because it keeps our range wide.

[ama0330]

Very good post bates.

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is something that I've found to be true at 50nL:

Opponents like to float 3bet pots. At 50nl, everyone starts 3betting a semiwide range, but has no clue how to play in a 3bet pot that they don't connect with. They think they should cbet 100% like they do in regular pots without realizing how exploitable that is, because they almost always fold to a raise. That makes floating preflop with hands like SC EXTREMELY profitable against PFR with wide 3b ranges. All you have to do is shove over their cbet with a FD, or mid pair, or whatever, and they fold often enough+you have enough equity to make it so ridiculously profitable.

I pretty much always check this spot. Not to c/r, but to c/c or c/f.

Think of it this way: What does a bet accomplish on this flop against a decent thinkign TAG? Do we think he will fold an ace or a bigger pair? Do we think he will smoothcall with a worse pair? He almost always folds 99 and worse here, and if he is calling preflop with a hand like T9s then he is either folding or (more likely) shoving this flop, against which we have to fold.

The ONLY reason to bet this flop is if we bet with the intention of calling his shove. Betting is risking more money in a growing pot that opponent has already decided he has an interest in taking down.

A line I find to be profitable is to simply ALWAYS check 3bet flops when an ace hits vs. aggressive thinking opponents (barring certain wet flop situations). A c/c after a 3b PF with AK never looks like an ace, so we induce opponent to bluff. I usually cbet overpairs, but with the intention of calling if he shoves with the understanding that an aggressive opponent has a wide range preflop and therefore necessarily has a wide range postflop.

Also, when opponents see us checking AK on ace-high flops in 3b pots, they become more wary of trying to steal from us when we have KK-JJ, because it keeps our range wide.

[/ QUOTE ]


I see where your coming from and I disagree completely.

checking this flop is horrible as i have said before because

A) Given LP's wide range if he checks behind he may hit a 2-8 outer of whatever, which is not something u can allow.

B) If he raises he has an ace like 90% of the time and u can fold knowing your beat.

C) if he calls flop bet you can assign a range and play turn based on your reads


checking flop is scared poker and it is very very bad. I don't know where you get the idea that you don't want to bet because 99 will probably fold. ok I'm alright with 99 folding. Don't u think 99 will fold on later street anyway.

seriously wtf?

[yegon]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is something that I've found to be true at 50nL:

Opponents like to float 3bet pots. At 50nl, everyone starts 3betting a semiwide range, but has no clue how to play in a 3bet pot that they don't connect with. They think they should cbet 100% like they do in regular pots without realizing how exploitable that is, because they almost always fold to a raise. That makes floating preflop with hands like SC EXTREMELY profitable against PFR with wide 3b ranges. All you have to do is shove over their cbet with a FD, or mid pair, or whatever, and they fold often enough+you have enough equity to make it so ridiculously profitable.

I pretty much always check this spot. Not to c/r, but to c/c or c/f.

Think of it this way: What does a bet accomplish on this flop against a decent thinkign TAG? Do we think he will fold an ace or a bigger pair? Do we think he will smoothcall with a worse pair? He almost always folds 99 and worse here, and if he is calling preflop with a hand like T9s then he is either folding or (more likely) shoving this flop, against which we have to fold.

The ONLY reason to bet this flop is if we bet with the intention of calling his shove. Betting is risking more money in a growing pot that opponent has already decided he has an interest in taking down.

A line I find to be profitable is to simply ALWAYS check 3bet flops when an ace hits vs. aggressive thinking opponents (barring certain wet flop situations). A c/c after a 3b PF with AK never looks like an ace, so we induce opponent to bluff. I usually cbet overpairs, but with the intention of calling if he shoves with the understanding that an aggressive opponent has a wide range preflop and therefore necessarily has a wide range postflop.

Also, when opponents see us checking AK on ace-high flops in 3b pots, they become more wary of trying to steal from us when we have KK-JJ, because it keeps our range wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

great food for thought

if I was villain I would fold KK,QQ to a 2/3 of pot cbet - leak?

so what would you do here c/f? And what would you do with AK here c/c or c/r?

If you allways c/f big pairs and only continue with AK or better after he bets your range is very narrow on the turn in 3bet pots. He has to pay 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot to find out what you have which is quite cheap. He also has the added benefit that you will fold more often than he needs for his bet to be profitable. This all changes if you are willing to c/c with JJ-KK on this flop but I don't see how we could call being OOP. What would we do on the turn?