Difference Between Poker and the Stock Market

[pig4bill]

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I might be stuck in 20th century thinking...but I RETIRED in the 21st century from that same thinking.... from individual DAYTRADERS alone!

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Take a look at a calendar sometime. It's 2007. The advice you're giving is a bit out of date.

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Are you familiar with DT'ing game?
If so..Discuss Plz
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Yeah. Discuss what, exactly?

[pig4bill]

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The second factor that killed the market was the move from fractions to decimals, with commissions remaining equal. Taking an easy .25 on 10,000 shares was sweet, making 5 cents on 10,000 shares is just a losing proposition.

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Trading 10,000 shares at a time is not the best way to make money. There are very few stocks you won't move with a 10k order.

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For daytrading to work, you must have volatility. There is no real volatility anymore due to information dissemination and electronic trading platforms.

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Are you MAD? Look at a chart of GOOG, or RIMM, or AAPL. There is PLENTY of volatility for daytrading.

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While making money in daytrading stocks is much harder now, FOREX does offer a way to trade shorter term and make some money, although once this market gets saturated, it will suffer the same fate as stocks/poker. FOREX trades with no commissions, only spreads and the software is free. It is also a more trending market, which allows a little more risk containment, although it does have high risks. You can also get into this type of trading with very little money. Still, you better know your intermarket play between rates, equities, commodities, etc. A good bit of skill in currency trading, probably more than simple stock trading.

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FOREX moves much less than many stocks. What gives it perceived volatility is the leverage. How often do you see a currency move 10%? Try to find a day WITHOUT a stock moving 10%.

[stephenNUTS]

[/ QUOTE ] Are you MAD? Look at a chart of GOOG, or RIMM, or AAPL. There is PLENTY of volatility for daytrading.

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LOL...you will go BROKE(or at best run in the sand) daytrading the likes of ANY big cap NASDAQ stocks you mention from commissions,margin calls,inabilty to hold losing postions overnight,running out of Buying Power,massive swings that no chart,tout service,formula,etc. can overcome

YES..the volitilty is certainly there ....buts thats the TRAP..lol.
Do you really think the MM's are going to "let" you buy 1000 shares of GOOG at 9:30....knowing full well that you MUST liquidate before days end due to margin/buying power regulations....,so that YOU can sell it back to them at 4:00 so YOU can profit...lol?

Sorry...but they(WE) make FORTUNES off of people with that reasoning

A buy and hold strategy on the likes of GOOG,AAPL,etc has had a SUPERIOR ROI ,than to DT'ing the whipsaw swings they will all incur.
I would say 95% of the noob daytaders think they will catch each days HIGH and LOW,and show a profit over time....nope!

Show me your P+L that proves that,YOU have made more intra-day trading these and I will STFU

Back in the day KLAC,ERTS,AMAT,INTC,etc ..were just some of the big cap NAZ stocks,with Alpha-Beta volitility/relative strength #'s that enticed them each and every day

New traders,"thought" they could market time intra day,Wow...UP $1.50...DOWN $2.75....back UP 1.25....lol...the Market Makers tend to disaggree and will show you a good lesson at some point,trapping you MOST of the time,with your back to the wall

NO-ONE is going to make $$$$ over time....daytrading the swings of these type stocks....THATS the scam that the DT'ers fall for


The ONLY one guaranteed to make money each day off daytraders ...was the B/D [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Just giving you a heads up,to save your money,as daytrading has broken MANY portfolios IMO the last ten years,when the computer age brought the markets to your own back yard.Remember..."there is ALWAYS another player on the other side of your trade...and he is most likely a PROFESSIONAL,that aint gonna' lose money"

On any given day...YES ...you can make some $$$ intra-day but over time,you will get ground down!

GL,
~Stephen

These posts are only here to HELP you guys understand the RISKS,pitfalls and fallicies of daytrading
If you can show me a bonified P+L statement over the same time period daytrading..,showing comparable returns,I would be quite impressed?

[ArturiusX]

The amount of bad advice and fallacies in this thread is sickening.

Its very possible to make money day trading, provided you know what you're doing.

[stephenNUTS]

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The amount of bad advice and fallacies in this thread is sickening.

Its very possible to make money day trading, provided you know what you're doing.

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If YOU are in the 5% that do make money individually DT'ing....BRAVO.
I would love to hear YOUR stratagy/experience/story/etc. in abit more detail though, before you make a post that suggests otherwise?

If you are talking about scalping a few bucks here and there....well thats easy,but I am talking about making $$$$ over the LONG HAUL.

Stephen [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[pig4bill]

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[/ QUOTE ] Are you MAD? Look at a chart of GOOG, or RIMM, or AAPL. There is PLENTY of volatility for daytrading.

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LOL...you will go BROKE(or at best run in the sand) daytrading the likes of ANY big cap NASDAQ stocks you mention from commissions,margin calls,inabilty to hold losing postions overnight,running out of Buying Power,massive swings that no chart,tout service,formula,etc. can overcome

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Did you even read what you typed? Do you know what daytrading means? It means you don't hold anything overnight. Commissions? Yeah, that fraction of a cent per share is BRUTAL! A 500 share trade will cost you FOUR WHOLE DOLLARS!! Massive swings? Didn't you agree with the other guy that there was no volatility? Volatility is where a daytrader makes his money.

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YES..the volitilty is certainly there ....buts thats the TRAP..lol.
Do you really think the MM's are going to "let" you buy 1000 shares of GOOG at 9:30....knowing full well that you MUST liquidate before days end due to margin/buying power regulations....,so that YOU can sell it back to them at 4:00 so YOU can profit...lol?

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Jeez, I had you pegged as stuck in the 90's. I was wrong. You are stuck in the 70's.

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A buy and hold strategy on the likes of GOOG,AAPL,etc has had a SUPERIOR ROI ,than to DT'ing the whipsaw swings they will all incur.
I would say 95% of the noob daytaders think they will catch each days HIGH and LOW,and show a profit over time....nope!

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No successful daytrader thinks that, hopes that, or tries that.

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Show me your P+L that proves that,YOU have made more intra-day trading these and I will STFU

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Somehow I doubt that.

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Back in the day KLAC,ERTS,AMAT,INTC,etc ..were just some of the big cap NAZ stocks,with Alpha-Beta volitility/relative strength #'s that enticed them each and every day

New traders,"thought" they could market time intra day,Wow...UP $1.50...DOWN $2.75....back UP 1.25....lol...the Market Makers tend to disaggree and will show you a good lesson at some point,trapping you MOST of the time,with your back to the wall

NO-ONE is going to make $$$$ over time....daytrading the swings of these type stocks....THATS the scam that the DT'ers fall for

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To paraphrase an old saying - Those that can, do. Those that can't, whine that it can't be done on the internet.

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These posts are only here to HELP you guys understand the RISKS,pitfalls and fallicies of daytrading
If you can show me a bonified P+L statement over the same time period daytrading..,showing comparable returns,I would be quite impressed?

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I would encourage anyone considering the advice on this forum to expect the advisor to know the definition of the subject - e.g. daytrading.

[ArturiusX]

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The amount of bad advice and fallacies in this thread is sickening.

Its very possible to make money day trading, provided you know what you're doing.

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If YOU are in the 5% that do make money individually DT'ing....BRAVO.
I would love to hear YOUR stratagy/experience/story/etc. in abit more detail though, before you make a post that suggests otherwise?

If you are talking about scalping a few bucks here and there....well thats easy,but I am talking about making $$$$ over the LONG HAUL.

Stephen [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I don't day trade stocks, just futures contracts. In the end, no matter what I say, I won't convince your small mind. You need to believe the game can't be beaten, you need to believe that anyone with a different approach is a sucker, you need the security of the fact that you're doing the best with your money.

At the end of the day, a metric ton of guys make money day trading. There's advantages and disadvantages to being a small guy in a big big big [censored] pond. I'm a bitch to the market makers. I'm a bitch to a system that somehow can overcome the 'rake' or the fees involved. Working with these constraints, thinking about why the market moves, what forces drive it (no, not the [censored] on cnbc), one can come up with scenarios that allow you to scalp money. The markets are not efficient. They are the sum total of everyones supply/demand, the sum total of everyones perception of value. With that, weakness in structure occurs and occurs regularly. If you're smart enough, and come up with a plan, you can exploit these facts.

Anyone who thinks the market is efficient should see all the information coming out over an information ticker, all the moves each player is making, everything going on at any point in the day. Its impossible to absorb all of this info, thus statistical anonymolies come up during the day which can be traded. If the markets aren't efficient, what are they? Effective. To look at a popular piece of market history, the dot come bubble. Stupid, irrational buying. And eventually, it topped. All the players were 'all in'. But, sanity prevailed, we went through a bear market, and now recover. And the cycle continues, hovering around the true value.

[stephenNUTS]

I would consider myself an authority on the daytrading business,as my firm had 20+ locations/branches around the country at one time,peaking a few years ago.The decline in # of DT'ers and/or BROKE day traders was PROOF in itself to the fact that VERY few INDIVDUALS (again I said INDIVIDUALS,not institutions or some big funds)make money over time DT'ing
We made a FORTUNE from their commissions alone,and the fact that I just recently retired comfortably,from just this speciality niche' in the market alone,substantiates 90% of my argument

You in no way,shape,or form understand the BUSINESS side of this,and have NO idea what you are talking about in this regard...so its a waste of time discussing this with you any further.

Based on your highly defensive stance with NO substance/proof to back up your side.. leads me to beleive you are one of the many caught up in this losing battle being a DT yourself that I encounterd throughout my carreer.
Ignorance on this subject,will be your worst enemy. YOU are the one caught up in fallacies....I laughed all the way to the bank at these degenerate gambling fools.They come and go...but the majority go BROKE!

As I said prove me wrong,with some valid data/stats,instead of just shootong your mouth off in an arena you are clueless about.
Your recent posts about the 90',80's...and now 70's mentality are getting pretty lame now as well

BTW..have you had ANY experience as a BD principle/owner in the daytrading field to even justify your ridiculous rants?

GL,
Stephen

*** once again these posts were intended to open the eyes/enlighten/help the forum to the downsides and pifalls of the daytrading world,from a 15+ year professional point of view!

[kimchi]

An old currency trader friend of mine is on the board of a large broker in the UK. He deals with mainly with the CFD and spreadbetting side of the business and is often candid about the trading game when we speak.

I'm always looking for ways to improve my trading and often pick his brain for new ideas. I asked him what style of trading is the most successful amongst his clients. He says he can pretty much knows all his consistenly successful daytrading clients as they're so few in number. Swing and position traders do abysmally as a group, but better than the daytraders.

I believe this may have to do with the trading vehicle. CFDs and spreadbets suffer from slippage and a significant spread most of the time for individual equities. This is just too much of a handicap to overcome when trading in a relatively narrow channel.

A daytrader trading a volitile market with an average channel width of 2% has to be a magnitude more accurate than a swing trading trading a weekly or monthly channel of the same market 5-10% (or more) wide.

Pig4Bill keeps talking about tiny commissions and no slippage, but this isn't the case with all traders, and certainly not those with non-US accounts.

Daytrading for me would be like sitting in front of a giant slot machine with flashing red & green arrows. I'd much prefer getting my data EOD to peruse over with a cup of tea, less pressure, and more time.

[stephenNUTS]

"" Daytrading for me would be like sitting in front of a giant slot machine with flashing red & green arrows . I'd much prefer getting my data EOD to peruse over with a cup of tea, less pressure, and more time""

THANK YOU KIMCHI [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]