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#71
08-23-2007, 11:10 PM
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Re: a crash course in prenups
As someone who will soon be entering the world of parenthood and marriage, i'd like to pitch in my 2c.
In short, I agree with guids on the issue... But I think guids came off as a douche because his posts were arrogant. This should not cloud the issue though. You also have to completely appreciate the value of the mother in the situation as well. Lets be honest here - if your wife is an amazing mother, her value while raising your children is WAY more than the cost of daycare or w/e you'd want to compare it to. The fact that she is YOUR CHILDS MOTHER is massive value in itself. If she takes care of the house, is a good mother, and raises your child in a way that he/she will have the best chance at having a good life, you really cannot put a price on that service. But a lazy spoiled housewife who doesn't do her share of work, and is not good at raising her kids could very well be worth negative $. You really cannot know what kind of wife yours will be until you've already committed and been with her for years. You may think you know everything about her, but you still don't know how she will preform as a mother. On top of that, love clouds logic, and you could very well convince yourself that she'll be amazing when all of the facts say otherwise. On a personal note - My Mom was great until her ~18th year of marriage, then she just snapped. Her psychiatrist narrowed the problem down to some deep seeded childhood trauma. After being asked about it too many times, she refused to talk about it and stopped seeing the psych. She royally screwed my dad over and essentially turned his ~2m business into a ~2$ business. This isn't something he could have predicted or had any previous knowledge about. The point is, if you have a great wife who will raise your kids right and maintain her own interests/career, the prenup really shouldn't matter. But there is NO WAY you can know if 5, 10, 25 years down the line she doesn't turn out to be much worse than you expected. I plan on getting a prenup, and would urge anyone else to do so as well. If she is as great as you think she is, it wont matter. If she isn't, you are saving yourself YEARS of financial stress on top of your emotional misery. 
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#72
08-23-2007, 11:24 PM
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Re: a crash course in prenups
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] seriously, I wouldnt care in the least, and will def have as airtight of a prenup as possible guaranteeing anything I earn is mine if we split, no matter what. [/ QUOTE ] Very smart, IMO... but it leads me to another question I've struggled with. I hate the whole halving approach that is the norm in divorces, but consider this: you settle down and marry a hot little gal. Suddenly your club, or restaurant, or bar, or whatever investment you pursue takes off and you make lots of money. Ten years down the line, you and the Mrs Guids decide to have kids. You tell her you want her to stay home to raise the kids because you can afford it and you would rather have her raise your kids than strangers, so you both agree to do that. Fast forward to ten years down the line, she isn't looking so hot anymore, kids have put a stress on the marriage, and you want out. Do you still feel as if you shouldn't give her ANYTHING even though she has nothing and you both had agreed that you would bring home the bacon while she would raise kids and maintain a household? Obviously it's money that you solely earned, and I don't think something as simple as "half" would ever be the answer. But I feel like if two people agree to a setup like that, it's not exactly fair for one of them to be completely busto at the end of putting a lot of hard work into it. I can't really wrap my head around how I think, ethically, this should be dealt with. EDIT: all of this is excluding child support [/ QUOTE ] To answer your first question... No I wouldn't have a problem signing a prenup if she asked me. When I eventually get married, she'll be signing one or we won't be getting married. It won't come in to play, so it shouldn't be a problem for her to sign it. As far as what to do if she raises my kids for ten years and then we split...I'm not sure. I don't agree that she's just "sitting on her ass spending my money" or whatever, because obviously raising my children is a hugely important job, and beyond the cost of daycare and such I don't think you can quantify the value of what a mother does. So let's say 10 years go by and she's being a bitch and I want to divorce her. No she doesn't get anything. We entered the marriage with the expectations that we'd be married forever. However what if I'm a total prick to her and she just can't stand it and wants out? Well I think I'd feel morally obligated to give her a nice cut, but since I've been a dick to her obv I'm not going to give her anything. Even though, on balance, I probably should, given that the marriage ended because I wasn't good to her. I can't really see any situation where I'd give her any money then. Most scenarios I don't think I should, and in the one scenario I do think I should I just wouldn't want to. Bottom line is that divorce is just an incredibly messy thing that you don't want. #1 prio is to make sure you find someone you really can love forever, and get a prenup on the very slim chance the [censored] hits the fan (slim in the sense you guys have done your diligence and really decided it's the right thing, not the standard 50%+ crap that plagues America)
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#74
08-23-2007, 11:30 PM
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Re: a crash course in prenups
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, guids, definitely don't get married. Big Flashing Red Light to Women Everywhere: A man that says "MY MOTHER DID ALL THOSE THINGS." [/ QUOTE ] My mom kicks major ass and I'd be ecstatic to find a girl who could do have the stuff she did when I was young.
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#76
08-23-2007, 11:43 PM
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Re: a crash course in prenups
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] meh, keep treating the women in your life like barefooted housewives, Im doing just fine. [/ QUOTE ] Riiight. When did you stop beating your girlfriend? [/ QUOTE ] talk about class. I dont get this mentality really. You dont respect women enough to maybe realize that they make their own choices, and that you need to "take care of them" after a divorce because they are too frail and stupid to make a go of it alone..and Im the misogynist? Once a vow is broken, I dont feel it is my responsibility to take care of anyone but blood. A divorce is going to be no fault of my own, when I love a girl (and it has happened once btw), Im a sucker and will do anything for her to make it last, Im naive this way, but if god forbid she just wakes up not happy and wants to leave me, and counseling etc doesnt work, than I wash my hands. [/ QUOTE ] I think the issue people have with your approach is mentality is that it holds up making money as the only valid choice. Or rather, if you want money in life then you need to make the choices that allow you to make it. You're probably thinking, "yeah well duh" But basically I don't think a lot of people agree with that. There are many aspects to life, as you well know, and when people get married they generally intend to build a life together. Depending on what stage they're in, they both might choose to earn money, but at some point they'll choose to focus on other aspects (aka children), and it's natural for one of the people to assume more responsibility for earning money. Of course they don't have to, and they won't make as much money as if they were both working, but they make the conscious decision to sacrifice some of their earning power for the benefit of building a family. It's unfair for a woman to get stuck with nothing for the same reason it's bs when a man gets to see his children every other weekend. He may not be around as much as the woman, but he played a hugely important role in the life they shared.
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#77
08-24-2007, 12:13 AM
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Re: a crash course in prenups
I am a married guy with significant income and assets and no prenup.
My marriage is a partnership, and I wouldn't have been able to accomplish what I've accomplished without my wife. She quit her job when she was six months pregnant, so has been out of work for three years now. Like all other major decisions, we made that decision together. I love the fact that our daughter has had the upbringing we've been able to provide. With all my wife has contributed to the Los Feliz Slim Family, Inc, not to mention what she's put up with in regard to my business commitments, she absolutely would deserve compensation if the marriage falls apart. Also, aside from the contributions she's made, re-entering a job market after a significant time away is obviously hard, so there's a lot of sacrifice there as well. I think what's making guids look bad is that there are lots of guys who will have their fiances sign a prenup while telling them it's a formality, encourage them to quit their jobs and raise the family for 15 years, and then leave them when their [censored] start sagging at 45 years old and it's easy for rich old guys to get laid. As long as somebody with guids perspective is 100% up-front with his fiance about how it's going to go down, more power to him. It will guarantee that the woman he ends up with will be someone who's up to the task, at least.
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#78
08-24-2007, 01:44 AM
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Re: a crash course in prenups
[ QUOTE ]
I am a married guy with significant income and assets and no prenup. My marriage is a partnership, and I wouldn't have been able to accomplish what I've accomplished without my wife. She quit her job when she was six months pregnant, so has been out of work for three years now. Like all other major decisions, we made that decision together. I love the fact that our daughter has had the upbringing we've been able to provide. With all my wife has contributed to the Los Feliz Slim Family, Inc, not to mention what she's put up with in regard to my business commitments, she absolutely would deserve compensation if the marriage falls apart. Also, aside from the contributions she's made, re-entering a job market after a significant time away is obviously hard, so there's a lot of sacrifice there as well. I think what's making guids look bad is that there are lots of guys who will have their fiances sign a prenup while telling them it's a formality, encourage them to quit their jobs and raise the family for 15 years, and then leave them when their [censored] start sagging at 45 years old and it's easy for rich old guys to get laid. As long as somebody with guids perspective is 100% up-front with his fiance about how it's going to go down, more power to him. It will guarantee that the woman he ends up with will be someone who's up to the task, at least. [/ QUOTE ] what klompy and you said are basicalyl what i think. Im going to be 100% up front, no qualms about, Im always pretty brutally honest with people I care about, this is no different. My goal is to have enough money that we can do whatever we want, whenever we want, BUT I also do not want money to EVER be an issue, Im just trying to get one less stress that we have to worry about.
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#79
08-24-2007, 01:47 AM
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Re: a crash course in prenups
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] guids can rub some people the wrong way, but at least he's not a troll. I have no clue where you pulled the gf beating comment out from. [/ QUOTE ] I pulled it from quids assertion that I "want my women barefoot and in the kitchen". This assertion is an example of a cliched rhetorical technique. So I responded in kind with another cliched classic: the loaded question. I can't believe I have to explain the concept of a "loaded question", but here goes: [ QUOTE ] A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded. Since this example is a yes/no question, there are only the following two direct answers: "Yes, I have stopped beating my wife", which entails "I was beating my wife." "No, I haven't stopped beating my wife", which entails "I am still beating my wife." Thus, either direct answer entails that you have beaten your wife, which is, therefore, a presupposition of the question. So, a loaded question is one which you cannot answer directly without implying a falsehood or a statement that you deny. For this reason, the proper response to such a question is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I want her to do whatever the [censored] she wants in life, and if I can help her with it, which I plan on being able to, I am going to, this all stems from love, if I never find someone I love this much, I wont get married, but Im 100% commited to doing whatever I have to for her, so I dont see why I should have to support anyone after I poured everything in trying to make it work. I just hope Im never in this situation.
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