Big Stacked AKs

[markysals11]

definetely bet and call an allin

[Sherman]

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Checking behind for value against any possible hands we are ahead of is straight silly

Shove and take the big pot vs weak hands
Shove and take the pot vs hands you are ahead of that fold
Shove and win the flip vs really good hands that villain calls with

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Plz Add:

Shove to fold out hands that otherwise would have paid you off on the turn.

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name one

go

Name a hand that is fodling to our shove on the flop, but paying us off on the turn when we hit a club, A, or K.

Thanks

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Adam. I am not talking about hands that pay us off when we make our hand. I am talking about hands that bluff the turn after we check. I already named a bunch of them including:
AJ+,KQ+. Also, if a blank club hits on the turn villain may shove a single club into us or may shove with no clubs trying to represent the flush.

[Sherman]

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Also, Sherman, when you check behind flop, and the turn is an offsuit 2, and whatever random pair he has open shoves the turn.

What do you do?

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You call. And no you haven't lost the odds to do so because you don't know that he has a pair. I've said this many many times already. 1) He shouldn't have a pair. 2) His range becomes wider on the turn after your flop check, so you do have the odds to call.

Edit: I've also mentioned many times that it makes no difference if you get it in on the flop or on the turn. If you don't plan on folding the flop or the turn, how does it make any difference when you get the $ in? The only time checking hurts us here is when villain hits his 2 or 4 outer (if he has unpaired cards) and then shoves the turn. Otherwise, checking the flop never hurts us.

[BlueEcho]

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Also, Sherman, when you check behind flop, and the turn is an offsuit 2, and whatever random pair he has open shoves the turn.

What do you do?

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i think this is the most probable outcome from checking the flop. taking a free card shows weakness and villain could be jamming on turn with pair or no pair, then it is up to you to decide if he does or not. like i said, put the decision on villain.

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You do realize that this arguement reinforces Sherman's point right?

That being said both sides have made good points.

[Sherman]

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Also, Sherman, when you check behind flop, and the turn is an offsuit 2, and whatever random pair he has open shoves the turn.

What do you do?

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He's calling.

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Which is terrible, as we've lost the odds to do so.

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I was trying to point this out. If you check & turn bricks, I think it's very bad to have to decide whether to call. Why put yourself in position to have to make a hard decision?

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But I'm not deciding. I've already decided on the flop. I am not making a touch decision on the turn. It was made when the flop came out. I look at it this way. When this flop comes out, I am getting the $ in by the turn end of story. I don't really care if I put it in on the flop or on the turn. I only care about maximizing my value against villain's hand range.

[MJBuddy]

Considering I'm having all of my advice thus far on these forums challenged by simply agreeing with Sherman here, I'm still in agreement.

Go read the anthology. Particularly the post on how to punish aggressive players by giving them rope to hang themselves.

[BlueEcho]

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Also, Sherman, when you check behind flop, and the turn is an offsuit 2, and whatever random pair he has open shoves the turn.

What do you do?

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He's calling.

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Which is terrible, as we've lost the odds to do so.

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I was trying to point this out. If you check & turn bricks, I think it's very bad to have to decide whether to call. Why put yourself in position to have to make a hard decision?

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But I'm not deciding. I've already decided on the flop. I am not making a touch decision on the turn. It was made when the flop came out. I look at it this way. When this flop comes out, I am getting the $ in by the turn end of story. I don't really care if I put it in on the flop or on the turn. I only care about maximizing my value against villain's hand range.

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This has got to be the optimal.

[BarryLyndon]

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Also, Sherman, when you check behind flop, and the turn is an offsuit 2, and whatever random pair he has open shoves the turn.

What do you do?

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He's calling.

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Which is terrible, as we've lost the odds to do so.

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I was trying to point this out. If you check & turn bricks, I think it's very bad to have to decide whether to call. Why put yourself in position to have to make a hard decision?

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But I'm not deciding. I've already decided on the flop. I am not making a touch decision on the turn. It was made when the flop came out. I look at it this way. When this flop comes out, I am getting the $ in by the turn end of story. I don't really care if I put it in on the flop or on the turn. I only care about maximizing my value against villain's hand range.

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This has got to be the optimal.

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But, if you push and with 0 FE on the flop, you avoid being different, don't you see?

Seriously, guys, your opponent did you a favor and told you what hand he has by checking. You have learned you are either WE of AQ or he has 99. Or, less often, that he sucks and is slow playing QQ. So, here is the situation:

1. you push, and guarantee yourself a 50/50.

OR

2. You check, Jc hits, now he pushes, and you're ahead 90/10. I feel he does this like, say, 1/3rd of the time.
3. The A comes up on the turn, he checks, you check back, and he gets cute and pushes the river because he's kinduv short and the pot is big. That's gonna happen a nice percentage of the time.
4. A K comes up on the turn, same thing.
5. Nothing comes up on the turn, he pushes, you call with 13 outs (or more if a J or Q hit) + you might be ahead if he's cute with AJ.
6. He checks AGAIN on the turn, and you proceed from there; if you check back, he may try to rep. river A, K.

I dunno, checking sure the [censored] looks good to me! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Barry

[MJBuddy]

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Also, Sherman, when you check behind flop, and the turn is an offsuit 2, and whatever random pair he has open shoves the turn.

What do you do?

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He's calling.

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Which is terrible, as we've lost the odds to do so.

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I was trying to point this out. If you check & turn bricks, I think it's very bad to have to decide whether to call. Why put yourself in position to have to make a hard decision?

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But I'm not deciding. I've already decided on the flop. I am not making a touch decision on the turn. It was made when the flop came out. I look at it this way. When this flop comes out, I am getting the $ in by the turn end of story. I don't really care if I put it in on the flop or on the turn. I only care about maximizing my value against villain's hand range.

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This has got to be the optimal.

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But, if you push and with 0 FE on the flop, you avoid being different, don't you see?

Seriously, guys, your opponent did you a favor and told you what hand he has by checking. You have learned you are either WE of AQ or he has 99. Or, less often, that he sucks and is slow playing QQ. So, here is the situation:

1. you push, and guarantee yourself a 50/50.

OR

2. You check, Jc hits, now he pushes, and you're ahead 90/10. I feel he does this like, say, 1/3rd of the time.
3. The A comes up on the turn, he checks, you check back, and he gets cute and pushes the river because he's kinduv short and the pot is big. That's gonna happen a nice percentage of the time.
4. A K comes up on the turn, same thing.
5. Nothing comes up on the turn, he pushes, you call with 13 outs (or more if a J or Q hit) + you might be ahead if he's cute with AJ.
6. He checks AGAIN on the turn, and you proceed from there; if you check back, he may try to rep. river A, K.

I dunno, checking sure the [censored] looks good to me! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Barry

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BRILLIANT!

[hamnegger]

1. u didn't reraise him enough to make him committ all in or fold.

2. as played u r a favorite w fold equity shove