self censorship - Page 8

limon · #71 02-28-2007, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
" check some polls on support of the war/president by manhattanites. it seems many who lost the most dont agree."

Limon,

There are many honorable people who oppose the President and/or the war, and support the troops.

Again, please appreciate your current safety and freedom. It didn't happen by accident.

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you can be honorable and dead wrong, among many other things. please appreciate that the danger and restraint felt by many americans at home and abroad didnt happen by accident either.

limon · #72 02-28-2007, 01:12 AM

"Do I support the troops? I really don't know. Maybe not, I guess. But I can certainly understand anyone who does, and I think I'm also beginning to understand those who don't."

this is what matters. but remember one side is correct. keep thinking...critically.

Dids · #73 02-28-2007, 01:14 AM

This is probably a forum no-no, but I'm grunching the thread to give a few responses.

I'm torn.

I know my friends who've ended up in the military did so more out of necessity than patriotism. It's a very viable option for a lot of low income folks. Once you're in, making that choice to not be involved in war is pretty difficult.

There's a guy in Seattle who just dodged a court martial (he was tried and the jury hung) for refusing to go to war. So "not pulling the trigger" has a lot of pretty lousy consequences.

Personally, I think killing people is real [censored]. My Dad was a CO from Vietnam because he didn't believe in it, and I'm really lucky that I have the choice not to do that sort of thing, and I'd encourage more people to make the same.

ElSapo · #74 02-28-2007, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"Do I support the troops? I really don't know. Maybe not, I guess. But I can certainly understand anyone who does, and I think I'm also beginning to understand those who don't."

this is what matters. but remember one side is correct. keep thinking...critically.

[/ QUOTE ]

"One side is correct."

I don't know about that. That's what opinions are all about. In fact, in most situations I'd say that's wrong -- who is "right" and "wrong" these days hinges on where you're from, what your income is, who you voted for and if you're religous. Or some variation of that.

In fact, I think I really disagree with the "one side is correct" idea. That seems like an almost offensive thing to say to someone who was just supporting your thought process, more or less, if not your conclusion. (not that you care)

I dunno. That just came off as too self-serving for my taste. Yeah, I think it's an awful war begun for the wrong reasons and continued for no reasons. But if Joe Smith wants to say he supports the troops, who am I or anyone to say he's "wrong?" Even if I disagree?

I feel like you just took my general comment in your support and really tried to take advantage of it. That bothers me.

limon · #75 02-28-2007, 01:24 AM

"There's a guy in Seattle who just dodged a court martial (he was tried and the jury hung) for refusing to go to war. So "not pulling the trigger" has a lot of pretty lousy consequences."

the consequences are no worse than what judith miller went through for not giving up her source in the treacherous valerie plame outing. i think a soldier should be brave enough to endure as much jailtime as this partisan hack in order to save his soul.

limon · #76 02-28-2007, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Do I support the troops? I really don't know. Maybe not, I guess. But I can certainly understand anyone who does, and I think I'm also beginning to understand those who don't."

this is what matters. but remember one side is correct. keep thinking...critically.

[/ QUOTE ]

"One side is correct."

I don't know about that. That's what opinions are all about. In fact, in most situations I'd say that's wrong -- who is "right" and "wrong" these days hinges on where you're from, what your income is, who you voted for and if you're religous. Or some variation of that.

In fact, I think I really disagree with the "one side is correct" idea. That seems like an almost offensive thing to say to someone who was just supporting your thought process, more or less, if not your conclusion. (not that you care)

I dunno. That just came off as too self-serving for my taste. Yeah, I think it's an awful war begun for the wrong reasons and continued for no reasons. But if Joe Smith wants to say he supports the troops, who am I or anyone to say he's "wrong?" Even if I disagree?

I feel like you just took my general comment in your support and really tried to take advantage of it. That bothers me.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry dude, i really hate wishy washy "YOURE BOTH RIGHT" arguements. especially when one side is most definately wrong. a flush beats a straight, the earth revolves around the sun and if the us military is ordered to commit an atrocity and they follow those orders i absolutely do not support them.

ElSapo · #77 02-28-2007, 01:31 AM

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i really hate wishy washy "YOUR BOTH RIGHT" arguements.

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And people who absolutely espouse absolute ideas have a tendancy to be absolutely scary. And we're absolutely in an absolutely horrible war.

I dunno. I'm stepping out of this conversation because I think I stepped into something. Good luck with your discussion; your opinion won't draw my ire.

limon · #78 02-28-2007, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i really hate wishy washy "YOUR BOTH RIGHT" arguements.

[/ QUOTE ]

And people who absolutely espouse absolute ideas have a tendancy to be absolutely scary. And we're absolutely in an absolutely horrible war.

I dunno. I'm stepping out of this conversation because I think I stepped into something. Good luck with your discussion; your opinion won't draw my ire.

[/ QUOTE ]

ire averted.

limon · #79 02-28-2007, 01:54 AM

"I don't think that is what is happening. I think you are expressing your opinion in a way that leads to conflict."

i dunno stuey. try making my argument w/o equivocating. i dont think youll be able to massage your way out of it. find a 68 yr old kkk grand wizard and tell him you think blacks are humans equal to whites and should be able to intermarry. see haw far that gets you. you probably wont meet that kkk guy though but you meet bumper sticker patriots all day long. (less every day though...yay!)

Jdanz · #80 02-28-2007, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
" check some polls on support of the war/president by manhattanites. it seems many who lost the most dont agree."

Limon,

There are many honorable people who oppose the President and/or the war, and support the troops.

Again, please appreciate your current safety and freedom. It didn't happen by accident.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have to question the relevance of this.

If I am thankful of those who fought justly in the past must I of necessity be supportive of those who I think do evil?

I'm going to keep my personal opinions out of this, but it seems emminently reasonable to think that what US soldiers in Iraq are doing is simply wrong and evil, and in no way is benificial to my freedom.

I think it also reasonable to think the exact opposite, that in fact their efforts are justified and they are protecting my freedoms.

While both of these seem to be opinions that two distinct rational people could legitametely come to, if one holds the former to be true than how is he disrespecting and being ungrateful? He is simply chastising evil in the world, which has no bearing on his freedom other than to reflect negatively on himself and his nation.

Further I don't think it should be taken as a given that anything a man in the uniform of the United States is just, nor that anything the United States as a whole does is just. By simply assuming that to be true we abdicate our responsiblity as moral agents, I think it is this weak acquiesence to percieved evil that so angers Limon. It is not necessarily a claim to absolute rightness but an attack against those who would lend passive legitamacy to actions they themselves felt were immoral.