The "disease" of alcoholism.

[PairTheBoard]

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I am a recovering alcoholic, have been clean for 25yrs.

I read somewhere that alcoholism progresses in the body even after one has quit drinking. It went on to explain that if you drank for 15 years, quit for 10, and had a drink, that drink would affect your mind and body as if you had been drinking steady for 25 years. If that is true, that would lend credence to the disease theory, I would think.

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This is probably overstated. I suspect someone in AA came up with it decades ago and it keeps getting repeated as fact even though there are no studies to support it.

However, I believe most Alchoholics who relapse after a number of years of abstinence say that although they may have a brief period of somewhat controled drinking they relatively quickly decline to conditions similiar to the bottom they reached when they quit previously and then progress to even worse experiences. The fact that they are dealing with the drug with older bodies and minds probably plays a role in making things worse than ever as well.

I believe the better model is that abstinence arrests the progression of the disease but does not reverse it. Also, an older body and mind is even less capable of handling the destructive effects of the drug.

PairTheBoard

[madnak]

I don't know about that stuff, but there are indications that some of the problem is neurological, and strong indications that it's largely biological (twin studies, etc). It seems to me that it's useful on many levels to classify alcoholism as a disease.

[bkholdem]

I used to have a major drinking problem (like massive binge drinking). I have been in treatment and went to AA for streaches of time too. I have had serious problems as a result of drinking and through most of my drinking life could not control it once i started drinking.

After several years of abstinance (as well as 'treatment' and personal growth) I am now able to drink socially. I have alcohol in my house and drink occasionally, usually no more than 1 drink and occasionally 2-3 if I will not be driving. The last time I drank I think was new years where i had about 1 and 1/2 glasses of wine reluctantly. I have no problems having 1 beer or 1/2 of a beer or not having any while everyone else is drinking.

3-4 years ago I drank maybe 5-6 drinks about 1x/week out clubbing before I was married. Several years before that no drinking.

In my late teens and early 20's major problems with out of control drinking, like 20-30 drinks every other night with blackouts and related problems with police and acting out of control. If I had 1 I would have 24 and be a wild man. During the worst phase I could only drink every other day due to the severity of my hang overs I would be sick the next day and evening. lol

If I did not undergo significant psychological and emotional changes I do not think I would be able to drink without serious problems.

[PairTheBoard]

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I don't know about that stuff, but there are indications that some of the problem is neurological, and strong indications that it's largely biological (twin studies, etc). It seems to me that it's useful on many levels to classify alcoholism as a disease.

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I agree. I think it is a subset of the general malady of Addiction with special characteristics distinct to the specific drug alchohol. I think Phil's post here was interesting.

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Phil -
Regarding anorexia - that is actually a disease, because an anorexic's self image becomes so distorted that they lose touch with reality. Alcoholism is different. Alcoholics make a choice to drink - they're actively seeking out moods and feelings, and alcohol helps them get to that state. They crave the alcohol state and will do almost anything to stay there. Is that crazy? Kind of. But underlying it all is an emotional choice to wallow in self loathing or self pity or cowardice, to take the easy way out.


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I don't think Phil's argument is much good because I think an alcholic in the grips of the disease - either just before or after he takes a drink - is just as disconnected from reality as Phil claims is the anorexic. However, I think Phil gives some very accurate descriptions of some things that go on with the alchoholic. And I think they illustrate why AA takes the position that alchoholism has the distinct characteristics of being a 3-fold disease of the body,mind, and spirit and thus in need of a treatment that includes a spiritual remedy.

PairTheBoard

[CORed]

"Cult" is probably too strong a term. Twelve step programs seem to be effective for some people, and as such should be given credit, but AA people tend to be annoyingly dogmatic, and many seem to believe that their way of dealing with alcoholism and other addictions is the only way, which is certainly not true.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to have a major drinking problem (like massive binge drinking). I have been in treatment and went to AA for streaches of time too. I have had serious problems as a result of drinking and through most of my drinking life could not control it once i started drinking.

After several years of abstinance (as well as 'treatment' and personal growth) I am now able to drink socially. I have alcohol in my house and drink occasionally, usually no more than 1 drink and occasionally 2-3 if I will not be driving. The last time I drank I think was new years where i had about 1 and 1/2 glasses of wine reluctantly. I have no problems having 1 beer or 1/2 of a beer or not having any while everyone else is drinking.

3-4 years ago I drank maybe 5-6 drinks about 1x/week out clubbing before I was married. Several years before that no drinking.

In my late teens and early 20's major problems with out of control drinking, like 20-30 drinks every other night with blackouts and related problems with police and acting out of control. If I had 1 I would have 24 and be a wild man. During the worst phase I could only drink every other day due to the severity of my hang overs I would be sick the next day and evening. lol

If I did not undergo significant psychological and emotional changes I do not think I would be able to drink without serious problems.

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Yea, you know it's not a simple thing with cut and dried diagnosis using blood tests, biopsies, and MRI's. It's been 70 years since AA first started. In the beginning it was only the most down and out rock bottom drunks who got involved with it. These were people who had already tried every conceivable way to either control their drinking or abstain completely and nothing had worked for them. Many found long term recovery in AA.

However since then the spectrum of people with alchohol problems going to AA has broadened to include many borderline types and many with only minor alchohol problems. This has been especially true in the last 25-30 years or so, since Betty Ford, Liz Taylor, and every other hollywood star that seems to end up in AA sooner or later. There's a joke about the Hollywood agent who tells his friend he's going to an AA meeting. The friend says, I didn't know you had a drinking problem. The Agent says, I don't. That's just where all the deals are being done these days.

I think it's pretty common for a lot of young people to get caught up in the heavy drinking of youth and then learn to moderate as they mature. Some of these types have worse problems than others and some have more trouble with their "moderate" drinking than others. Where do they fit in the "disease" model? Who knows for sure. It's a complicated thing and I don't think it's all that well understood. Even the people who should have the most collective experience with the problem in AA say they "know only a little".

Then there are those at the other end of the spectrum. Let me relate the story of my best friend who died just about this time 2 years ago. He was only 43 and I had known him for about 20 years. He was about the worst alchoholic I've ever seen. He went to AA and was able to say sober for several months at a time. But over the 20 year period he never stayed sober for more than a year at a stretch. When he drank he drank almost exclusively for oblivion. He went through the DT's something like a dozen times over the years. His brother died of organ failure from years of drinking.

Around 4 years ago he attempted suicide while on a binge. He was unsuccessful, went through withdrawls and stayed sober for several months. He then went on another binge and toward the end of it after getting half sober attempted suicide again by driving a car 90 mph into an overpass support column. Miraculously he survived with minor injuries. He got sober again. I spent many days talking to him about how his disease had progressed and how it looked very unlikely he would survive another relapse. He went to meetings every day for several months. Then stopped going to meetings and in a few months relapsed again.

Within 3 days of drinking we had him in the emergency room with a blood alchohol content of 0.54 . Enough to kill most people with alchohol poisoning. He refused hospital treatment, went home and coninued to drink. Friends from the meetings called and visited him but he would not or could not quit. His roomates would block him from leaving the house and he would jump from the second story to go get more alchohol. He would go missing for days and had more trips to emergency rooms. It only took about 2-3 weeks of this for him to reach his end. After getting out of the hospital for the last time with a prescription for Librium to help him with withdrawls I talked to him on the phone that evening encouraging him to use the Librium to get off the booze. The next morning he walked down the street to a freeway overpass and dived off head first onto the freeway. He died instantly.

The more experience you have with alchoholism the more reasonable the term "insanity" becomes in relation to it.

I hope you have seen the last of your problem drinking. Be aware though that there are also people who match your description and who eventually find their moderate drinking escalating once again to a problem. Be aware that alchohol may still have the potential of being a very dangerous drug for you.

The subject of alchoholism is far from simple and it is far from being completely understood. imo, the main thing is that if you have a problem with alchohol find something, anything that helps you with your problem.

PairTheBoard

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
"Cult" is probably too strong a term. Twelve step programs seem to be effective for some people, and as such should be given credit, but AA people tend to be annoyingly dogmatic, and many seem to believe that their way of dealing with alcoholism and other addictions is the only way, which is certainly not true.

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Effective for some people, but grossly ineffective in general. Its not like there are significantly better alternatives, but AA has a dismal success rate.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Cult" is probably too strong a term. Twelve step programs seem to be effective for some people, and as such should be given credit, but AA people tend to be annoyingly dogmatic, and many seem to believe that their way of dealing with alcoholism and other addictions is the only way, which is certainly not true.

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Effective for some people, but grossly ineffective in general. Its not like there are significantly better alternatives, but AA has a dismal success rate.

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if there are not any signficantly better alternatives maybe it is best to not berate the lack of success of AA. I used to go to AA and agree it is cultish, I never bought into that mindset and it scared the hell out of me the first few times I was sent there (like the first 4-5 years off and on). Eventually I learned to view the cult mindset for what it was and not be bothered by it rather than being repelled by it, so was able to find the program very useful.

The cultish vibe did scare the hell out of me but there is no reason to think you have to be assimilated to the cult borg mindset there in order to find a few useful friends there for support or to find it useful to be reminded that there are others in the world who have problems like yours who are now much better off.

I have not been to an AA meeting in years. I used to have a major drinking problem, like major. I now drink on occasion, like an average of probably 1 drink every month or 2. When I was in my late teens and early 20's I could not stop drinking, I drank twice as much as the next heaviest drinker out of all my friends and was probably the drunkest person whereever I was at.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Cult" is probably too strong a term. Twelve step programs seem to be effective for some people, and as such should be given credit, but AA people tend to be annoyingly dogmatic, and many seem to believe that their way of dealing with alcoholism and other addictions is the only way, which is certainly not true.

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Effective for some people, but grossly ineffective in general. Its not like there are significantly better alternatives, but AA has a dismal success rate.

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And what success rate it does have isn't attributable to the elements that get harped on (ie religion). In fact, it's very possible that simple fellowship, support, and communication are the only effective elements of such treatments. The fact that learned helplessness and magical thinking are foisted onto group members along with the support is very disturbing.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Cult" is probably too strong a term. Twelve step programs seem to be effective for some people, and as such should be given credit, but AA people tend to be annoyingly dogmatic, and many seem to believe that their way of dealing with alcoholism and other addictions is the only way, which is certainly not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Effective for some people, but grossly ineffective in general. Its not like there are significantly better alternatives, but AA has a dismal success rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

if there are not any signficantly better alternatives maybe it is best to not berate the lack of success of AA. I used to go to AA and agree it is cultish, I never bought into that mindset and it scared the hell out of me the first few times I was sent there (like the first 4-5 years off and on). Eventually I learned to view the cult mindset for what it was and not be bothered by it rather than being repelled by it, so was able to find the program very useful.

The cultish vibe did scare the hell out of me but there is no reason to think you have to be assimilated to the cult borg mindset there in order to find a few useful friends there for support or to find it useful to be reminded that there are others in the world who have problems like yours who are now much better off.

I have not been to an AA meeting in years. I used to have a major drinking problem, like major. I now drink on occasion, like an average of probably 1 drink every month or 2. When I was in my late teens and early 20's I could not stop drinking, I drank twice as much as the next heaviest drinker out of all my friends and was probably the drunkest person whereever I was at.

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Your post basically just confirms all of my views on AA. You managed to take some things (friends, etc) from the meetings, but in general the concept of AA is disturbing and ineffective. You managed to overcome your drinking more IN SPITE OF AA than because of it, and I think that is the case with a lot of alcoholics. Since every alcoholic ends up going to AA at some point or other, on their way to recovery, there are bound to be a certain number of successes. But would you consider yourself an example of a success for AA? I won't speak for you, since I have no idea what your situation really is, but from your posts so far in this thread, I would say definitely not.