Congratulations! You just became the manager of a Vegas poker room!

[pvn]

Two words: free blowjobs.

[mshalen]

Sorry TT, this post won't help give you an answer to your question but the more I read the more frustrated I became.

It is sad to see that poker room management is as poorly thought out as the typical small companies I deal with on a daily basis. I would not last more than a few days in the position being discussed. When given this assignment I would have asked the manager which he considered more important 1) the overall profit generated by the poker room or 2) the need to run games of a certain size?

If the house is most concerned with profit then I would spread whatever games I could keep full that would generate maximum rake per seat per hour. If this means a room that is full of 1/2 NL and 3/6 limit then so be it. Why should I be concerned with what the games are? Does McDonalds tell their managers to sell more Big Macs or do they tell them increase the bottom line by keeping the place full?

If the house is more concerned with some kind of vanity project where perception is more important than the bottom line then I might as well quit now. If the room is not making a profit then we would all be out on the street eventually. I would appreciate it if someone could explain the economics behind the need to run any one specific game.

I guess that this rambling answer is one reason I have spent a total of only 8 years (out of a 30 year career) working inside major companies. Don't both to fire me, I QUIT.

[bunky9590]

I haven't been around for a while, but I heard about this post and had to come respond to my good friends thread.

Now, the way I understand it is this. They want to have a 30-60 game run around the clock in 6 months or less and I understand they have a solid base of small games underneath. I would also be under the assumption that the casino is not hurting for money.

Now, a bit of an outside the box thinking is if you want it to run, run it like a loss leader. The game is not going to be profitable to you to get it established but if you want to be aggressive and take market share, you're going to need to give them the farm at first.

Fist of all if you really are serious about making this thing go, and to hell with the profit from this single table. Run it rake free/time charge free. I mean completely rake free from shorthanded to full ring. Run it as a promo, put the word out, post it on a big sign in front of the poker room, get the word of mouth out that casino X is running their 30-60 limit game rake/time free.

Now, that alone is going to generate traffic if its advertized correctly.

Secondly, hire some props to start a short table, if the main table fills up, start a must move, pull the props out when the list gets started and fill the seats with customers. Keep the game going.

Third, offer a comp bonus for playing shorthanded on top of the no rake. Lets say for arguments sake that the normal comp rate for a player at a 30-60 tbale is $2.00/hour. Make the comp rate at $4.00/hour if the game is 6 handed or less at any point during that down. (Players walking could be a floor decision)

If the room is solid in say 20-40 or 15-30, market the game to them. If its running short and the 15-30 is deeper in a list give them an incentive to move up. Comp them a meal if they play the 30-60 for 2 hours or so.

I think with aggressive marketing the traffic will come and obviously the casino can afford to play a little loss leader on one limit of one game if they are looking to increase market share in the higher limit action. When the 30-60 is firmly established, (and I mean FIRMLY established) pull to no rake/time charge and put in place a rake/time charge at half of what the other casinos are getting. You can then pull some profit and keep the game running.

You can then run the same promo as originally stated in the 50-100 or 60-120 game to establish that.

Not a short term profitable solution, but it will certainly generate the traffic necessary to get that game up and running. You didn't specify that the game had to be profitable, just that the game was to be running 24/7 in 6 months. This solution will most certainly do that.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
If the house is more concerned with some kind of vanity project where perception is more important than the bottom line then I might as well quit now. If the room is not making a profit then we would all be out on the street eventually. I would appreciate it if someone could explain the economics behind the need to run any one specific game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker rooms are vanity projects by definition even though they turn a small profit... they are traffic generators and often thought of as little less than that, the poker room exists so tourists and customers who are there to spend/lose their rolls to the house are happy. Anyone who thinks the a poker room in Vegas is built for locals to come and play then leave before they spend money elsewhere in the casino is kidding themselves... the locals are welcome because they fill the room - they provide the bodies needed to make the tourists who are spending cash elsewhere in the casino happy.

The higher limit games make high limit pit players happy, a 100 min bet a hand blackjack player has no interest in playing 4/8 limit or 1/2 NL, its chump change - they want action! Also the higher limit locals are more likely top spend money at the casino's amenities. Its purely perception, and its helpful in the long term bottom line of a casino to have fewer low limit games vs higher limit games. Plus there is the added vanity affect that high limit games bring to the room, low limit players want to be near the high limit games too... this concept has been proven in the past numerous times by Bellagio, Taj, Borgata, Mirage, and other large rooms that attract a range of games.

PS: I am glad you quit, now I don't have to pay unemployment insurance when I fire you! Hurray!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Bremen]

Well I'd attack the problem slightly differently. Instead of trying to compete head on with Bellagio I'd try and move the market. We have a group of regulars who will play shorthanded and want to play rotation games in our limit range. Competition for these games is much weaker. The only issue is convincing the high limit pit players (they ARE the only reason we're doing this in the first place) that they want to play rotation games instead of hold'em. A marketing push portraying rotation games as elite should draw in the pit players.

If the above is a no go the idea I like best involve getting a couple B-list WSOP "Stars" to prop your games. Seeing a couple guys from TV will make your pit players think they're in the big time battling against the best there is.

I would avoid any rake reduction. This will just attract tables full of very tight locals. Your pit players want ACTION not chops every other hand. (In a market like CA where even the very worst players are rake aware this strategy can work, but not in a tourist town like LA)

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]

Another thing would be when you approach the desk when your name is called is for them to ask if there are other lists you are on that you want to be taken off of or added too. This would make the lists more accurate so easier to start calling when it gets to 8-10 instead of waiting until 15 since classically half the people don't want to leave the game they are in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never understood why the poker software most casinos use doesn't do this automatically. Its pretty trivial to enter a name/initials and then select games to associate to it. When the name gets removed in one place you remove it from others.

To be even more useful to players/casinos you could have some sort of hierarchy of games where if a player gets called to a table they are removed from all games less than that game but stay on other lists they may want more. For things like interest lists you'd just choose an option that would let the person's name stay on.

This feature wouldn't remove all problems of inaccurate lists, but it would definitely help with a lot of them.

[MrFizzbin]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'd attack the problem slightly differently. Instead of trying to compete head on with Bellagio I'd try and move the market. We have a group of regulars who will play shorthanded and want to play rotation games in our limit range. Competition for these games is much weaker. The only issue is convincing the high limit pit players (they ARE the only reason we're doing this in the first place) that they want to play rotation games instead of hold'em. A marketing push portraying rotation games as elite should draw in the pit players.

If the above is a no go the idea I like best involve getting a couple B-list WSOP "Stars" to prop your games. Seeing a couple guys from TV will make your pit players think they're in the big time battling against the best there is.

I would avoid any rake reduction. This will just attract tables full of very tight locals. Your pit players want ACTION not chops every other hand. (In a market like CA where even the very worst players are rake aware this strategy can work, but not in a tourist town like LA)

[/ QUOTE ]

The rotation idea isn't that bad, if you couple it with a class for your "Pit Players" where your Host, or staff players give a private lesson to the pit players to encourage them to come over and try a rotation. Also work with the "regulars" to encourage them to play a rotation that the pit players are comfortable with (make the fish happy dammit, and we all eat...)

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I'd attack the problem slightly differently. Instead of trying to compete head on with Bellagio I'd try and move the market. We have a group of regulars who will play shorthanded and want to play rotation games in our limit range. Competition for these games is much weaker. The only issue is convincing the high limit pit players (they ARE the only reason we're doing this in the first place) that they want to play rotation games instead of hold'em. A marketing push portraying rotation games as elite should draw in the pit players.

If the above is a no go the idea I like best involve getting a couple B-list WSOP "Stars" to prop your games. Seeing a couple guys from TV will make your pit players think they're in the big time battling against the best there is.

I would avoid any rake reduction. This will just attract tables full of very tight locals. Your pit players want ACTION not chops every other hand. (In a market like CA where even the very worst players are rake aware this strategy can work, but not in a tourist town like LA)

[/ QUOTE ]

The rotation idea isn't that bad, if you couple it with a class for your "Pit Players" where your Host, or staff players give a private lesson to the pit players to encourage them to come over and try a rotation. Also work with the "regulars" to encourage them to play a rotation that the pit players are comfortable with (make the fish happy dammit, and we all eat...)

[/ QUOTE ]

This wont happen today, tomorrow, or even in 1 million years. A casino is a corporation, you must give your responses like you work for the corporation - driving bottom line. Pit players will never be encouraged to play poker instead of pit games... be realistic guys. Why the hell would the casino want their core customers to switch to a game with a smaller profit line?

Your both fired. Next....

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[MicroBob]

yeah, if anythingI would think it would be the other way where the casino would want to be giving classes to regular poker-players on how to play craps or pai-gow or any of their other house-games.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
driving bottom line. Pit players will never be encouraged to play poker instead of pit games...

[/ QUOTE ]
But isn't the whole point of this that pit players are going to another casino because we don't have poker? I'm not suggesting we "encourage" them to play poker; merely talk up rotation games over single format games to those who we might otherwise lose to competition.