A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action

[Riddick]

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I couldn't imagine anyone who doesn't, but this thread has me wondering if many of you ever heard of segregation, Jim Crowe, Rosa Parks, white and black water fountains, MLK, and the like

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I notice you interestingly (intentionally?) left out the word LAWS after the words "Jim Crowe" in your rebuttal favoring violent government intervention into people's lives.

[TomCollins]

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Do you support the KKK's right to free speech?

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While I don't agree with many of their viewpoints, I not only support everyone's right to free speech, I'd risk my life protecting it.

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So why do you support racism?

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When did supporting free speech become supporting racism?

Do you always take such a simplistic view of complex issues?

Or are you only doing it to be silly and argumentative?

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Correct, I am mocking your simpleton posts claiming that pvn and I support racism.

At least you read something right today.

[TomCollins]

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So do hotdog vendors.

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Thanks to the Civil Rights Act.

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Wrong again. If I choose to only buy hotdogs from Mexican vendors, the Civil Rights Act says nothing. But your thought police would probably arrest me in your dream world.

[hmkpoker]

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So do hotdog vendors.

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Thanks to the Civil Rights Act.

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Wrong again. If I choose to only buy hotdogs from Mexican vendors, the Civil Rights Act says nothing. But your thought police would probably arrest me in your dream world.

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Bingo. If I own a widgit store and discriminate against two equally qualified people, I'm a racist. But if I choose only to buy from the widgit store owned and operated by white people rather than the one owned by black people, it's ok...even if the widgits are identical.

If two business owners of different races set up similar businesses, shouldn't the consumer be forced to give his money to the one who produces the better widgit rather than based on the race of the owner/workers?

It's the same damn thing.

[BCPVP]

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So do hotdog vendors.

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Thanks to the Civil Rights Act.

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The gov't granted hotdog vendors rights? And here I thought that rights were not granted by the government. Silly me.

[RedBean]

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Correct, I am mocking your simpleton posts claiming that pvn and I support racism.


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Where did I claim that you supported racism?

In fact, it was you who claimed I supported racism.

[Brainwalter]

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Correct, I am mocking your simpleton posts claiming that pvn and I support racism.


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Where did I claim that you supported racism?

In fact, it was you who claimed I supported racism.

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So you think businesses should have the ability to openly and intentionally discriminate on the basis of color, religion, and gender?

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-RedBean

[RedBean]

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RedBean: So you think businesses should have the ability to openly and intentionally discriminate on the basis of color, religion, and gender?


TomCollins: Yes.


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Brain, you left out the answer.

And for what it's worth, me asking a question and him answering in the affirmative is not the same thing as me making a claim that he supports racism.

[briddle]

Wow, this post got long on me. That's what happens when you challenge a philosophy major to argue with your points, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

As an underprivileged young white male from Metro Detroit with a very conservative background, let me just say as a general comment that yes, racism does still exist. All of my immediate family members are racist, as are most of my closest friends and their immediate family members. That doesn't mean that they don't watch sports, or that they necessarily cheer for white people ahead of black people. It's more of a "have a nice day" racism. They try to keep it in, but they still have strong, typically negative emotional reactions to people based solely on skin color.

That is my understanding of why affirmative action exists. It is not an attempt to keep employers from hiring whites who are smarter than blacks, it is an attempt to do two things:

1) It's an attempt to get employers and people in general to stop believing the stereotype that white people are smarter because they're white. There is no way to logically equate the color of someone's skin to intelligence. To pretend that there is a link is ridiculous -- it's looking for patterns where none exist. Creating more diversified workplaces and schools will help people to realize this when they have a wider range of experiences with the other races in question. While equating intelligence (or inclination to theft, drunkeness, drug abuse, etc) to skin color is very difficult logically, making the connection based on economic/social status is a lot easier, which leads us to...

2) It's an attempt to make up for the inherent inequities in the system based on the fact that non-caucasians (especially African Americans) have been discriminated against for a long time. Even if you believe that racism no longer exists, it's verifiable that it did at one. These past inequities, in which the completely under-qualified white was given the job over a well-qualified black, led to the current situation in which African Americans are made to start at a disadvantage due to economic hardship almost across the board.

So, let's bring this back to your argument for a moment, hmkpoker. You seem to be arguing that, because the people applying for the same job are likely to be from a similar socio-economic background, we are taking the job from the white schmo and giving it to the black schmo simply on the basis of his skin color. For the sake of argument, I will grant you this premise (although I disagree). I still believe that AA is equitable/just/fair (or however you want to phrase it), and here are my reasons:

1) The poor white schmo is more likely, based simply on the distribution of white SES, to be a poor schmo because of his personal choices or as a direct result of the choices of his parents. Take me, as a personal example. My grandparents on both sides were well-off and educated, and better than 75% of my uncles and aunts and cousins are as well. My parents met at Bible college, failed to find employment in any religious capacity and took a variety of low-paying jobs. They are mired in debt due to poor personal financial choices. Now imagine that my dad is applying for the same job as a black man who has never had a person in his family tree who could be considered well-off. Your average African American is not likely to be a poor schmo because of his personal choices, but rather because of the SES distribution of African Americans. Thus, statistically, he is much more likely to be there due to circumstances relating back orginially to racism/slavery.

2) Here in the Detroit area, it is extremely segregated, so my experience may be far from typical, but my family members don't really come into contact with very many minorities (and they're friends with none). This allows them to believe stereotypes with impugnity because their faulty beliefs are never challenged. This is the other reason I believe that AA is fair in this situation -- if it helps the other people in the majority-white work place (if it weren't majority white, they wouldn't be concerned with AA, after all) come into contact with more minorities, it should, in the long-run (we're talking EV-style long-run here) lead to a more equitable, non-stereotyping society.

Once the AA system has done its job (if it ever does), it will help to move more black family lines into better economic positions, leading to a more integrated society in which people aren't judged by skin color, and AA is no longer necessary. Thus, while the short-term, close-up "the white guy and black guy have equal SES" view may make the situation appear unjust, the 50,000 foot approach looks better, imho.

FWIW, I was originally very strongly against AA, and I do strive to keep an open mind. If you wish to continue the argument, I would be more than happy to do so.

EDIT to add: I'm not terribly familiar with employment AA, my response was based more on the college admissions-style AA where applicants are shown more favor due to minority status. I'm not sure if any employment AA works like that or not...

[briddle]

TomCollins, I may be mistaken, but I believe your avatar is an OSU Buckeye football helmet, no? As a Michigan alum, I am so terribly tempted to make a stereotypical wisecrack right now, given your rather enlightened views... Dang, why didn't I read the entire thread before I made my post [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]?