Official Barry Bonds Countdown Thread

[critikal]

Drew, are you mentally retarded or something? Bonds has evidence that he didn't use steroids in the form of a drug test. Since you don't seem to be able to follow logic here's an example- let's say someone says that you used Cocaine last night. You take a drug test, and that finds that there was no cocaine in your system. That would be "evidence".

Onto why steroids help pitchers possibly more than hitters. Steroids can help a person build muscle mass... if you need evidence for this then arguing with you is useless (which it probably is anyways, but maybe some rational person will get something from my argument). Would you agree that having more muscle could potentially help a pitcher?

The more important use for steroids to pitchers is to aid recovery. Not sure if you know this, but throwing ~100 pitches every 5 days can be pretty taxing on the arm. Using steroids helps your body repair. If you go to a doctor with an injury (I'd like to say a ligament tear, but I'm not a medical expert and am not 100% that this is what they prescribe them for) often times they will prescribe steroids to help your body heal. I personally believe steroids are the reason you see old pitchers (such as Roger Clemens) today be very effective, and have very little drop off since their younger years. I don't have any proof that Clemens cheated, however, so I won't go around saying that he should have an asterisk by his name.

In short, steroids help pitchers recover from arm injuries, and allow a pitcher to go out with his "best stuff" more often. In my opinion, this is a better help than being able to hit a ball, what, 20 more feet?

[Pudge714]

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casual fan's view.

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Ergo, ignorance?

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Quoting out of context ftw?
RedBean,
Just out of curiosity please post the P(Bonds took steroids in your opinion)

[DrewDevil]

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Redbean and others have discounted any evidence that isn't absolute proof of Bonds' steroid use, which is similarly retarded. That is my whole point.

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I respectfully disagree. I have only discounted your repeated assertions as fact of things that are untrue...(ie. Bonds admission during grand jury testimony.)

I do not discount the circumstantial evidence presented, and readily acknowledge that pieces of circumstantial evidence exists that may lead many to the opinion that Bonds used steroids.

My entire point is, however, that that opinion is just that...opinion and not a fact.

I do not tread into matters of opinion, I deal only in fact.

Just the facts, man.

I'm like the black Joe Friday.

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Your skill at semantics and parsing would make Bill Clinton proud, I think.

Since you are the black Joe Friday, how do you respond to all the facts in the Game of Shadows book?

Previously, I think you've dismissed the book as being "for-profit," but I don't really think you believe that all facts contained in books written for profit are invalid.

You may think the writers are biased, have an axe to grind, etc., but you realize those are all red herrings, right? What about the asserted facts themselves? If you're all about the facts, then shouldn't you address the facts, and not some real or imagined bias of the writers?

[DrewDevil]

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Drew, are you mentally retarded or something? Bonds has evidence that he didn't use steroids in the form of a drug test. Since you don't seem to be able to follow logic here's an example- let's say someone says that you used Cocaine last night. You take a drug test, and that finds that there was no cocaine in your system. That would be "evidence".

Onto why steroids help pitchers possibly more than hitters. Steroids can help a person build muscle mass... if you need evidence for this then arguing with you is useless (which it probably is anyways, but maybe some rational person will get something from my argument). Would you agree that having more muscle could potentially help a pitcher?

The more important use for steroids to pitchers is to aid recovery. Not sure if you know this, but throwing ~100 pitches every 5 days can be pretty taxing on the arm. Using steroids helps your body repair. If you go to a doctor with an injury (I'd like to say a ligament tear, but I'm not a medical expert and am not 100% that this is what they prescribe them for) often times they will prescribe steroids to help your body heal. I personally believe steroids are the reason you see old pitchers (such as Roger Clemens) today be very effective, and have very little drop off since their younger years. I don't have any proof that Clemens cheated, however, so I won't go around saying that he should have an asterisk by his name.

In short, steroids help pitchers recover from arm injuries, and allow a pitcher to go out with his "best stuff" more often. In my opinion, this is a better help than being able to hit a ball, what, 20 more feet?

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Please re-read thread to discover why I asked for evidence of a negative. It was to prove a point, not because I am retarded, but you can call me names if you want. I don't really think it helps your argument.

vhawk and I already discussed the hitter/pitcher dynamic. I think the offensive explosion of the last 15 years, which corresponds exactly with the rise of steroid use in MLB, is very strong evidence that steroids help hitters more than pitchers.

I do not think Bonds deserves an asterisk, I think he does not deserve the Hall of Fame.

[jesusarenque]

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red-i think your an idiot because you want everything to be an absolute 100% provable fact in order to take it into consideration..which is nice if your living in never never land but in the real world things are never that cut and dry.

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In the real world, labor law contracts as they apply to the enforcement of banned substance policies are indeed usually very cut and dry.

In the case of the MLB CBA it is extremely black and white.

It is done this way for the express purpose of defining an absolute demarcation line of violations in order to preclude debate or discussion that appeals to emotion or biased opinion.

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ok then RedBean a some simple questions

1. Do you think Bonds used Steroids?(think, not know)
2. Do you think that helped him perform in his sport?
3. Does that change your opinion of him and his accomplishments?

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Even though you didn't ask me, I will answer these for fun.

1. I don't know, obviously, but if I had to guess I would say yes.
2. Not sure, but I don't think it gave him any meaningful unfair advantage.
3. No

[RedBean]

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what's so bad about answering those questions which are pertinent to the discussion?


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I answered the question. You just don't like the answer.

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Redbean you can still think he took them and argue your same exact stance.


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Yeah, I know I could.

I could also think it best to reserve judgement until all the evidence is known. That's what I chose.

He asked what I thought and I gave my opinion on it. My apologies if it doesn't conform to your expectations.


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Bunch of wannabe lawyers in here...

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As well as quite a few wannabe judge, jury, and executioners.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[MuresanForMVP]

well we're not in a court of law, we're in the court of public opinion dont you think? that being said we are each a member of that jury

[kyleb]

Wow, DrewDevil comes off as the biggest idiot. Here are a few classics:

"Prove that steroids help pitchers."
"Prove that Barry is clean." (Ah yes, prove a negative! Logic 101 FTL.)
"Barry took steroids beyond a reasonable doubt." Where is your hatred for Ryan Franklin, Juan Rincon, Rafael Betancourt? Why do you not campaign for them to be removed and their strikeouts negated?

You can't prove [censored].

[gusmahler]

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1. Do you think Bonds used Steroids?(think, not know)
2. Do you think that helped him perform in his sport?
3. Does that change your opinion of him and his accomplishments?

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My answers to these questions:

1) Don't know. But I'll still answer the other two questions on the assumption that he did.

2) No. If as many people were taking steroids as Canseco asserts, than any advantage Bonds got wasn't an "unfair advantage." It was just an advantage.

3) Obviously, if I don't think he had an unfair advantage, it doesn't affect my feelings of him as a player. Plus, as I posted earlier, if he retired after 1999, I would still consider him a top 10 player of all-time.

[By-Tor]

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Wow, DrewDevil comes off as the biggest idiot. Here are a few classics:

"Prove that steroids help pitchers."
"Prove that Barry is clean." (Ah yes, prove a negative! Logic 101 FTL.)
"Barry took steroids beyond a reasonable doubt." Where is your hatred for Ryan Franklin, Juan Rincon, Rafael Betancourt? Why do you not campaign for them to be removed and their strikeouts negated?

You can't prove [censored].

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RE-READ THE GODDAMN THREAD!!!?!?!?!?!?!




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