ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[curtains]

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Is it fair to ask curtains (and others) how long/how much they knew about Zee and others multi-accounting? I certainly have absolutely no idea how much curtains, N 82 50 24, etc. knew or didn't know; but both of them seemed to be aware of what was going on before the knowledge became 'public' (which is indicative of nothing; both are friendly with him, and perhaps Zee both told them recently what was happening with Party -- and it's certainly possible curtains, N 82 50 24 WERE the ones reponsible for alerting Party, whether they admit it or not; or perhaps they just heard through the rumor mill; etc. etc. etc. In other words, there's lots and lots of way they could have known what was happening with ZJ without having kept the information private for a substantial amount of time).

However, I certainly think we could call into question the ethics of those who seemed to have some level of prior knowledge (again, I have no idea how much) but *didn't* alert Party, etc.

Again, this sounds like a witch-hunt; but it's somewhat common knowledge that some of the uber-skilled players here IM each other, have lots of contact outside of 2+2, etc. -- and I don't doubt curtains et al are completely sincere when they say they disagree with what Zee has done, and that they agree it's cheating, etc. But I think it's fair to question if some posters (probably a cadre of posters, who are again all friendly) have had some level of knowledge that Zee multi-accounts but didn't alert Party. Failing to alert Party (if they have known for months, for instance) is very unethical as well, despite the inclination not to "rat out" people we are friendly with.

I'm not claiming that out-ing their friend as a cheater was ideal (again, IF they had known Zee was multi accounting), but turning a blind eye to cheating (or not alerting Party) certainly cost some players money. I certainly would have to think long and hard before I turned in a friend to Party for cheating. I'd like to think I would, but not having been in such a situation, that's easy for me to say.

Perhaps I'm way out in left field here. My apologies to all if I am (and my apologies to curtains and N 82 50 24, who I'm sure I've unfairly singled out -- but curtains had the unfortunate luck of Zee mentioning his name as someone he consulted with, and N 82 50 24 has indicated he has 'known' something).

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I agree with most of this - but I think curtains, N 82 50 24, gbmantis and the rest are going to be tainted by this unless they come clean. If they really knew about this and did nothing then I have lost all respect for them. I would personally have done something about it - but then I must be one of the few honest people left.

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Come clean are you joking? You don't think ZJ has talked to people about this in the last 48 hours? My conversation with ZJ was private and thats all I'm going to say about it, and the other names you mentioned shouldn't have to say anything either. What do you think, ZJ went around telling dozens of people that he was cheating months ago and everyone sat around and did nothing?

[J.A.Sucker]

I wouldn't in this case. I know that it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission, but the dude is a thief. Frankly, even in his honest response, I suspect that he wasn't honest about his SNG prowess. Even better are the idiots who think that this may not be cheating - how obvious can this be? Of course, I'm always leery of many things about cheats as you know. Maybe you'll give me a little credit in the future...

[nolanfan34]

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just to set the record straight i changed his title. I don't think it's wrong in the least, it's meant to be funny, and it is funny. Anyone that disagrees doesn't really have a sense of humor imo.

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It's wrong. You are a moderator.

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ZJ probably doesn't think it's very funny, and I think he's been punished enough by losing something like $100k and his reputation.

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lol.

Guess what. The world is a cruel place, and I hardly think some namecalling in this thread is over the top. Apply what happened to a real world business situation. In the business world if you make a contract with someone (the T&C in this case), and then cheat and break it, losing the money involved is the least of your problems.

No sympathies here at all.

I also agree though that this is an extremely troubling issue. Can someone smarter than me explain why it would be too hard for Party's software to reject multiple entries into a tournament from the same IP address?

[bocablkr]

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It's not fair on curtains because if he knew about it but chose not to say anything, that is very different from actually doing it himself.

If he didn't know anything, there will still be a debate claiming he did, and he's in a no-win situation either way.

Lori

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Different, but not much less unethical. It is so sad that people nowadays would even think this is debatable. In the past dishonesty was unacceptable - period.

[Todd]

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Is it fair to ask curtains (and others) how long/how much they knew about Zee and others multi-accounting?

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No.

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Why not?


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Ethics is a thorny issue, and attempting to implicate or impugn others in the forum based on what they knew or didnt know is a fools game. Especially if the goal is to determine whether you will continue to 'respect' them.

All of us (most of us) know people who use drugs recreationally. No one turns them in, since it is none of their business. Ethical? Not Ethical? Would it be better to council them to get help etc? Suggest that they cease doing them?

Whether someone knew or didnt, and what they did with that info is really on them and their concience. In my opinion it is not germane to this conversation.

[gilbert]

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you only regret what you did because you lost money, right?

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so true. eff him.

[iSTRONG]

I've run out of popcorn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[El Diablo]

Eugene and others,

To those of you who are like, eh, whatever, this is not that big a deal and the punishment and criticism is too harsh, let me point something out.

It is very possible that in his big tourney wins, ZJ dumped chips from one or two of his medium stack accounts into another of his accounts to build up a big stack and commanding chip lead.

Obviously, most times he won't be at the same tables. But most times he wasn't having big finishes, either. Playing huge numbers of tourneys with that many accounts will lead to lots of very valuable cheating opportunities. Maybe it is a coincidence that ZJ had a long tourney drought and things picked up with a couple of big wins when he figured out how to put six horses into the same tourneys. Or maybe not.

(Oh wait, I forgot, when opportunities to take advantage of his cheating came up, he didn't capitalize on them and opened up more SNGs. That's right!)

[JBB]

[bocablkr]

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Come clean are you joking? You don't think ZJ has talked to people about this in the last 48 hours? My conversation with ZJ was private and thats all I'm going to say about it, and the other names you mentioned shouldn't have to say anything either. What do you think, ZJ went around telling dozens of people that he was cheating months ago and everyone sat around and did nothing?


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We don't know what to think - that is the point. And you admit you don't want to tell us about the 'private' conversation. But it 'looks' bad. And if you did know about it before this then it looks even worse.