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#61
11-02-2007, 11:09 AM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
[ QUOTE ]
Not because of charitable work or anything like that. But rather simply because it makes a lot of people happier than they otherwise would be. They might claim that they would like to be free of the restrictions that their religion puts on them. But I think almost everybody would agree that they are happier with their religion and its restrictions than they would be without either. Even if you go under the assumption that the specifics of any religion are definitely false, that doesn't mean that a practitioner of that religion or even someone not yet born who is destined to practice it, is better off not believing in it. The fact is that only a minority of the individuals in this world gain more than they lose by being atheists, even if atheism is assumed to be correct. In order to gain from atheism you need to be the type of person who derives much satisfaction from knowing the truth and you also need to be someone who is pretty happy with what they are doing and how their life is going. There are atheists who do not fit into this category of course. They might be ex theists who have become embittered. But that was probably too bad for them. I had originally assummed that almost everyone on this forum is one of those minority of people who is better off not believing in something that is a monumental underdog to be true. Which is why I gave arguments for non belief. Perhaps ten percent of theists would be happier if they became atheists. But I thought a much bigger percent of two plus two theists would be happier as atheists. I don't think that anymore. So I see no good reason for me to pursue the subject further. [/ QUOTE ] David, you have not thought this through thoroughly. With all conjecture aside, obviously Christianity is much more logical than atheism. After you have given this some substantial thought, you should be able to derive the logical conclusion. Todd B. 
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#63
11-02-2007, 11:11 AM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
[ QUOTE ]
How exactly a war like Iraq's was caused by religion? [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] US PRESIDENT George Bush has said that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC series. The claim comes from the first meeting between the US leader, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen), and his then foreign minister in June 2003. The ministers say that Mr Bush also revealed to them that he had been told by God to create a Palestinian state. Former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath, now the Information Minister, describes the meeting with the US leader, in the BBC2 program, Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs. He says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God'. "God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq . . .' And I did. "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. "And by God I'm gonna do it." [/ QUOTE ]
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#64
11-02-2007, 11:47 AM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
I just kind of skimmed this thread and I think this was touched on but never really hammered out.
Someone who is religious today and had that taken away from them tomorrow would generally be less happy than they were previously. But that is not the same as someone who never had this belief. I think it is similar to saying people are happier because they can freely get tacos, but if they never knew what tacos were would they be less happy?
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#65
11-02-2007, 12:05 PM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
[ QUOTE ]
How exactly a war like Iraq's was caused by religion? Quote: US PRESIDENT George Bush has said that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC series. The claim comes from the first meeting between the US leader, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen), and his then foreign minister in June 2003. The ministers say that Mr Bush also revealed to them that he had been told by God to create a Palestinian state. Former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath, now the Information Minister, describes the meeting with the US leader, in the BBC2 program, Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs. He says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God'. "God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq . . .' And I did. "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. "And by God I'm gonna do it." [/ QUOTE ] George travels in deception and perhaps delusion. This in no way represents the statement that religion causes wars.
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#66
11-02-2007, 12:16 PM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
[ QUOTE ]
But rather simply because it makes a lot of people happier than they otherwise would be. [/ QUOTE ] Prove it. [and note that "otherwise" doesn't mean just taking away religion from them, but teaching them a different lifestyle that suits their needs (from the many available ones that aren't religious)]
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#67
11-02-2007, 12:18 PM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
[ QUOTE ]
George travels in deception and perhaps delusion. This in no way represents the statement that religion causes wars. [/ QUOTE ] If George is deluded by his religion into thinking he needs to make war, then yes, religion can help cause wars. And I'm pretty sure if you look at the other side, the Islamics outright claim they're waging a holy war. I think with a little research one can easily find a lot of Evangelical Christians who are interested in war in the Middle East because it will fulfill their religious prophecies. One can look in the past to see war fueled by religion: The Crusades, The French Wars of Religion, Reconquista, the fights between Catholics & Protestants in Ireland, and of course, Islamic Jihad.
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#68
11-02-2007, 01:00 PM
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Re: A Not Nice Clarification
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I always enjoyed your posts FWIW. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks. Unfortunately, atheism could never make me as happy as not posting here. [/ QUOTE ] how many "last posts ever" are you planning on making?
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#69
11-02-2007, 01:24 PM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
Why does he have to prove it? People give their personal testimony to this all the time and that's exactly when the non-theists start accusing them of being delusional.
Doesn't a person know if he's happier or not? If you said you like peppermint ice cream better than chocolate I'd never think to question you about it. I'd accept it as a statement of fact for you. I'd never accuse you of being delusional because you like peppermint and I like chocolate. The simple fact of that matter is for a true practictioner religions often teach benign attitudes and behaviors. Christians are told to be slow to anger, not to complain, not to blame, etc. Isn't this going to help a lot in interpersonal relationships. Wouldn't this have a calming influence on family arguments once people start to do these things. Wouldn't this prevent conflict from arising in the workplace. Now a non-practicioner will say they can do these things too and they can, but a believer has a higher authority telling him he must do it and if you really believe that higher authority is telling you to do it then you have additional incentive to do it and it leaves you less room to make excuses so you can get out of doing it.
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#70
11-02-2007, 01:39 PM
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Re: A Not Nice Clarification
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I always enjoyed your posts FWIW. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks. Unfortunately, atheism could never make me as happy as not posting here. [/ QUOTE ] ", he posts, in SMP.
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